"Perth Transport Futures"

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green light
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by green light »

Thanks for the replies all.

I would have thought that there would be objections to the development, otherwise it will be quite expensive to deploy Mr. CPO later on if a future Administration wants to tackle this roundabout.
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jackal
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by jackal »

The Perth West Development was recently approved by P&K council. As mentioned above, it lies between the two arms of the A9 approaching Broxden, restricting any future upgrade. Transport Scotland asleep at the wheel?

Access to the development will eventually be via a folded dumbbell on the A9 west of Broxden, but suspiciously this is listed under 'phase 3'.

Perth West - Copy.JPG

https://www.perthwest.com/media/Perth-W ... rofile.pdf
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orudge
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by orudge »

I suspect we're going to need a Perth bypass bypass before long!

I'm sure there was some sort of talk of Broxden grade separation in a P&KC document a few years ago (more recently than the 2008 STPR), but it is difficult to see how anything could really be done if this development is built.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by B9127 »

orudge wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 11:27 I suspect we're going to need a Perth bypass bypass before long!
It looks like it is going to be become the same as Kingsway Dundee - an urban D/C Trunk Road and Dundee Northern Bypass is first in the queue before Perth and Dundee is not going to happen in the next 25 years in MHO
Motorways travelled 2019 - M90 - M9 - M80 - M8 -M77 - M73 -A74(M) -M6-M42-M40 -A404(M) - M4 - M5 -M50 -M56 much better so far than last year
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Chris5156 »

This is really disappointing. Either Transport Scotland are indeed asleep at the wheel, or their thoughts about this junction are much less ambitious than we all expected.

I wonder if, for example, they are only envisaging conversion to a grade separated roundabout, with a flyover or underpass between the north and south arms. That could probably still be accommodated.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 16:38 This is really disappointing. Either Transport Scotland are indeed asleep at the wheel, or their thoughts about this junction are much less ambitious than we all expected.

I wonder if, for example, they are only envisaging conversion to a grade separated roundabout, with a flyover or underpass between the north and south arms. That could probably still be accommodated.
I'd imagine that would probably solve most of the issues - traffic must split fairly equally here.

You'd have thought this infrastructure might have been provided first, though.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Truvelo »

It's so sad when a bypass becomes breached by development in this way. The same thing is happening with Inveralmond where new development is taking place around the industrial estate. As far as Broxden is concerned there would be little point in having the grade separation between the north and west arms as Inveralmond would be impossible to grade separate. To fully GSJ the A9 would need a new outer bypass. A flyover or underpass between the west and south arms would work as these routes are fully GSJ'd for some distance beyond.
How would you like your grade separations, Sir?
Big and complex.
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orudge
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by orudge »

Living in the north east, I could get on board with freeflow between the M90 and the A9 to/from Dunblane. I don’t envision the Scottish government building many, if any, full freeflow interchanges ever again, given their recent track record.

If at some point an outer Perth bypass did get the go-ahead connecting A9 to A9, I suspect it would be “bolted on” with the old route remaining the mainline, rather than made freeflow (as per the A90/A92 junctions).
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by clc »

orudge wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 21:07 Living in the north east, I could get on board with freeflow between the M90 and the A9 to/from Dunblane. I don’t envision the Scottish government building many, if any, full freeflow interchanges ever again, given their recent track record.
I could get on board with that too. Then grade separate Kier roundabout and build the Dundee bypass so that Glasgow-Aberdeen is nonstop.

With regard to Inveralmond, one thing they could do is encourage northbound traffic to use both lanes on the approach to the roundabout. I’ve noticed there’s usually a long queue in the inside lane while I sail past in the outside lane. Tourists don’t realise the roundabout has two northbound lanes.

Perhaps the Cross Tay Link will also take some pressure off Inveralmond.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by B9099 »

clc wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 22:06
orudge wrote: Thu Aug 05, 2021 21:07 Living in the north east, I could get on board with freeflow between the M90 and the A9 to/from Dunblane. I don’t envision the Scottish government building many, if any, full freeflow interchanges ever again, given their recent track record.
I could get on board with that too. Then grade separate Kier roundabout and build the Dundee bypass so that Glasgow-Aberdeen is nonstop.

With regard to Inveralmond, one thing they could do is encourage northbound traffic to use both lanes on the approach to the roundabout. I’ve noticed there’s usually a long queue in the inside lane while I sail past in the outside lane. Tourists don’t realise the roundabout has two northbound lanes.

Perhaps the Cross Tay Link will also take some pressure off Inveralmond.
My fear is the Cross Tay Link road will increase the traffic at Inveralmond, especially southbound. At busy times the traffic can be queued back past where the link road will join the A9. Any traffic avoiding Scone etc, which is one reason given for the the road, will simply add to this.
Im trying not to think about what will happen when a larger event is on at Scone Palace plus the additional traffic from all the projected house building in Scone.

I spoke to one of the planning representatives, from the designers, at my local village hall when the design was put to the public. She said their projections were that there would be a slight increase in flows at Inveralmond. She did say changes were being looked by others for the roundabout but it would mean the removal of some buildings ( Arnold Clark Mercedes was mentioned). Definately won't be holding my breath on that one!
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by clc »

Noticed some work going on to the west of the A9 north of Inveralmond. I guess this is advanced works for the A9 realignment?

Re queuing at Inveralmond, when approaching the roundabout heading north you can use both lanes, but when approaching the roundabout heading south you can only use the outside lane. What’s the thinking behind that?
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by jnty »

clc wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 23:53 Noticed some work going on to the west of the A9 north of Inveralmond. I guess this is advanced works for the A9 realignment?

Re queuing at Inveralmond, when approaching the roundabout heading north you can use both lanes, but when approaching the roundabout heading south you can only use the outside lane. What’s the thinking behind that?
I guess the vast majority of traffic heading northbound will be continuing on to the A9, with most Perth-bound traffic having peeled off at one of the three previous junctions. However, a lot of traffic heading south will be aiming for Perth, especially at rush hour, so it's probably more evenly balanced between the A912 and the A9.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by JoshBostock01 »

jnty wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:14
clc wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 23:53 Noticed some work going on to the west of the A9 north of Inveralmond. I guess this is advanced works for the A9 realignment?

Re queuing at Inveralmond, when approaching the roundabout heading north you can use both lanes, but when approaching the roundabout heading south you can only use the outside lane. What’s the thinking behind that?
I guess the vast majority of traffic heading northbound will be continuing on to the A9, with most Perth-bound traffic having peeled off at one of the three previous junctions. However, a lot of traffic heading south will be aiming for Perth, especially at rush hour, so it's probably more evenly balanced between the A912 and the A9.
From experience, Inveralmond experiences congestion southbound due to the fact that there is only one lane for A9 traffic. Usually the right lane is backed up exteremly far back while the left lane that serves Perth is empty. Really all it needs is a change in markings to allow both lanes to be used for A9 traffic and maybe a change of signal timings so queueing traffic heading north out of Perth doesn't interfere with it.

However, I reckon this lack of capacity is intentional. Without it, all the A9 traffic would simply back up at Broxden instead where it would probably contribute to making the delays on the M90 much worse with the higher flow on the A9.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by clc »

JoshBostock01 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 13:10
jnty wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:14
clc wrote: Thu Apr 21, 2022 23:53 Noticed some work going on to the west of the A9 north of Inveralmond. I guess this is advanced works for the A9 realignment?

Re queuing at Inveralmond, when approaching the roundabout heading north you can use both lanes, but when approaching the roundabout heading south you can only use the outside lane. What’s the thinking behind that?
I guess the vast majority of traffic heading northbound will be continuing on to the A9, with most Perth-bound traffic having peeled off at one of the three previous junctions. However, a lot of traffic heading south will be aiming for Perth, especially at rush hour, so it's probably more evenly balanced between the A912 and the A9.
From experience, Inveralmond experiences congestion southbound due to the fact that there is only one lane for A9 traffic. Usually the right lane is backed up exteremly far back while the left lane that serves Perth is empty. Really all it needs is a change in markings to allow both lanes to be used for A9 traffic and maybe a change of signal timings so queueing traffic heading north out of Perth doesn't interfere with it.

However, I reckon this lack of capacity is intentional. Without it, all the A9 traffic would simply back up at Broxden instead where it would probably contribute to making the delays on the M90 much worse with the higher flow on the A9.
I agree about changing the lane markings to allow the use of both lanes when heading south on the A9, I think that would help reduce queuing.

With regard to northbound queues, every time I’ve driven through there’s been a long queue in the inside lane while the outside lane is virtually empty. The sign on the approach indicates that both lanes can be used for the A9 but the majority of vehicles (presumably tourists) still join the long queue in the inside lane. I’m not complaining mind you as it means I can sail through, but I do find it odd.
jnty
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by jnty »

clc wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 21:27
JoshBostock01 wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 13:10
jnty wrote: Fri Apr 22, 2022 11:14

I guess the vast majority of traffic heading northbound will be continuing on to the A9, with most Perth-bound traffic having peeled off at one of the three previous junctions. However, a lot of traffic heading south will be aiming for Perth, especially at rush hour, so it's probably more evenly balanced between the A912 and the A9.
From experience, Inveralmond experiences congestion southbound due to the fact that there is only one lane for A9 traffic. Usually the right lane is backed up exteremly far back while the left lane that serves Perth is empty. Really all it needs is a change in markings to allow both lanes to be used for A9 traffic and maybe a change of signal timings so queueing traffic heading north out of Perth doesn't interfere with it.

However, I reckon this lack of capacity is intentional. Without it, all the A9 traffic would simply back up at Broxden instead where it would probably contribute to making the delays on the M90 much worse with the higher flow on the A9.
I agree about changing the lane markings to allow the use of both lanes when heading south on the A9, I think that would help reduce queuing.

With regard to northbound queues, every time I’ve driven through there’s been a long queue in the inside lane while the outside lane is virtually empty. The sign on the approach indicates that both lanes can be used for the A9 but the majority of vehicles (presumably tourists) still join the long queue in the inside lane. I’m not complaining mind you as it means I can sail through, but I do find it odd.
Yes, can be quite nice. Although the advance lane markings used to give me a fright!

Presumably if the queues are really long southbound there's nothing intrinsically wrong with going in the left lane and doing a cheeky u turn at the roundabout immediately afterwards on the A912.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by jackal »

Some councillors are annoyed by Transport Scotland's lack of interest in improving Broxden roundabout: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/loca ... s-26296813

Also some detail I hadn't previously seen about Transport Scotland's proposals: “the widening of the circulating carriageway to four lanes, lengthening of the three lane sections of all approaches and the provision of left turn bypass lanes”. Even this modest proposal doesn't seem to have a start date: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/loca ... e-23264230

I've previously mentioned that, while most countries prioritise freeflow for major junctions, in the UK priority is given to minor junctions, with major junctions usually featuring one or more roundabouts. This British eccentricity is taken to new extremes on the A9, with very low volume junctions grade separated, but the busy junction that links everything together being left as a flat roundabout in perpetuity.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Bryn666 »

jackal wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 10:40 Some councillors are annoyed by Transport Scotland's lack of interest in improving Broxden roundabout: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/loca ... s-26296813

Also some detail I hadn't previously seen about Transport Scotland's proposals: “the widening of the circulating carriageway to four lanes, lengthening of the three lane sections of all approaches and the provision of left turn bypass lanes”. Even this modest proposal doesn't seem to have a start date: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/loca ... e-23264230

I've previously mentioned that, while most countries prioritise freeflow for major junctions, in the UK priority is given to minor junctions, with major junctions usually featuring one or more roundabouts. This British eccentricity is taken to new extremes on the A9, with very low volume junctions grade separated, but the busy junction that links everything together being left as a flat roundabout in perpetuity.
At least they've not trashed it with a hamburger...

I would still settle for a flyover onto the M90 - it's not going to solve the whole issue but it links up the direct Edinburgh-Inverness route.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Chris5156 »

Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:19I would still settle for a flyover onto the M90 - it's not going to solve the whole issue but it links up the direct Edinburgh-Inverness route.
That probably wouldn't be anyone's ideal layout, but it would be a relatively economical and pragmatic way of getting enough traffic off the roundabout that the remainder would flow much better.

And then the spur could be signposted A9(M) :stir:

Edit: I notice that Google Maps has Broxden marked as J12, and indeed there is a solitary reference to it on this sign at the roundabout too. Is that new? I can't think of another example of a spur getting a junction number that belongs beyond the end of the mainline of the motorway.
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by Bryn666 »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:38
Bryn666 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 11:19I would still settle for a flyover onto the M90 - it's not going to solve the whole issue but it links up the direct Edinburgh-Inverness route.
That probably wouldn't be anyone's ideal layout, but it would be a relatively economical and pragmatic way of getting enough traffic off the roundabout that the remainder would flow much better.

And then the spur could be signposted A9(M) :stir:

Edit: I notice that Google Maps has Broxden marked as J12, and indeed there is a solitary reference to it on this sign at the roundabout too. Is that new? I can't think of another example of a spur getting a junction number that belongs beyond the end of the mainline of the motorway.
I've never understood the destination choices there either. List everything, be grand...
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Re: "Perth Transport Futures"

Post by rileyrob »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu May 05, 2022 12:38 Edit: I notice that Google Maps has Broxden marked as J12, and indeed there is a solitary reference to it on this sign at the roundabout too. Is that new? I can't think of another example of a spur getting a junction number that belongs beyond the end of the mainline of the motorway.
GSV shows that sticker there as long ago as 2012 (but not in 2009), and I remember it being discussed on here - found it: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=28056&p=573913&hili ... en#p573913 . I must admit, though, I thought the '12' was on the ADS signs on the motorway itself too...
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