Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Big L »

I wonder if this whole scheme has come from the 'innovation budget' - the one that gave us big orange speech bubbles at roadworks (remember them?) and signs on the M5 telling us that all of the services are charging almost identical prices for fuel. It might be stupid, but they have money to spend on things that might be stupid.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by darkcape »

ScottB5411 wrote:There are no roundabouts on this junction, it is a full free flow motorway to motorway junction, so it is in no way the same as the M18 to A1M, nor the M27/M271 junction.
My point was that there were already traffic lights on roads classified as motorway - as so many news outlets are whipping up hysteria as though this is the first time a traffic signal has appeared on a blue line on the map.

There were ramp metering lights on the M1 northbound at J24, J24a northbound, and J25 southbound that were working up until January this year, when they were switched off for the Smart Motorway works - I don't believe they are being reinstated as the thinking as that the VSLs and extra lanes will mean they are not required.

The northbound pair worked quite well as little traffic joined at J24, so the queue only ever made it halfway up the slip, and traffic was usually moving at this point (being stationary up to the preceding exit slip). The set at J24a favoured the M1 at the expense of the A50 - the M1 mainline would be moving at approx 20mph whilst the traffic queued on the A50 (although as there was a dedicated exit lane perhaps it did not snarl up the A50 mainline).
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

Yes, the fluid dynamics analogy is good. It's one of many hysteresis effects in both natural and artificial systems. Especially well-known in magnetic materials; and since even early days in electronics, bi-stable circuits have been designed (and accidentally created). I'd think most motorway users have encountered (or been scared to death by) the sudden appearance of a phantom queue.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Fenlander »

jackal wrote:
booshank wrote:
Berk wrote:How long until we start having traffic lights on the mainline, y’know, like signalised roundabouts?? Then the speed limit will need to be cut, of course... :twisted:

A flat roundabout every few hundred metres allowing access to a housing estate or retail park probably :/
Exactly this is planned for the M181.
Needs a new name, maybe M181(B)
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by A9NWIL »

Bryn666 wrote:
nowster wrote:
Bryn666 wrote:Whilst I don't see the point in this scheme...
A lane gain with a tiger tail hasn't given the required results, so now it's being tacked by flow metering.

I agree that the underlying problem is the Eccles-Wardley stretch of the M60.
That's what I mean. Arguably if any motorway junctions needed ramp meters it was Eccles. As I said before, most of the NW motorway network problems can be traced back to M60 J12. Sort that and much of the region's congestion will go away.
So C/D lanes for the merging situation from the M62 to the A572.
So if you take a lane coming from the M60 clockwise, before the M62 eastbound link merges with it and have that bridge over the link coming from the M62 eastbound, which will meet one lane from the M62 eastbound link, with the other going to join the M60 clockwise.
Those two other lanes the one that came off the M60 clockwise and the one from the M62 eastbound that didnt join the M60 clockwise, can meet making a separate 2 lane link that can be the new slip to the A527.
The old A527 off slip from the M60 clockwise can then be closed.
That would mean all traffic could stay in lane and flow nicely, the M60 clockwise would keep the lane gain and 4 lanes through this section, with the A572 traffic removed from the situation.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by ais523 »

Chris5156 wrote:I don't regularly use the M42, certainly not in the rush hour, but I'm not certain the ATM ramp metering system is in regular use any more either.
I've seen it in use fairly recently (but it was malfunctioning, cycling through its phases very quickly, with the amber being the longest phase; in case it's relevant, the M42 itself was almost stationary at the time).
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Arcuarius »

ScottB5411 wrote:Saddens me to see the nanny state taking over the road network as everything is dumbed down for inadequately trained drivers who need to be told how to do everything at all times.
Saddens me to see that speed limits HAVE to be reduced and further measures HAVE to be taken because people fail at keeping their cars between the white lines and at looking past the end of their bonnets. We apparently can't do right either way, because either someone doesn't understand a perfectly logical symbol, or it's too wordy, or it costs too much, or it ruins the countryside, or it takes away passing trade. Quite often reducing a speed limit and putting everything on yellow backing boards is the only option left, and we must be seen to do something because the local villagers will be up in arms if we don't.

I've mentioned before that I'd rather fix things properly - I'm as much a fan of a decent grade separated D2 bypass or a nice four-level stack as anyone. But it just won't happen because the government - be it local authority, Highways England, or the leeches of Whitehall themselves - are petrified of the disruption, and have no backbone unless it affects them directly.

The money we do get goes mostly on traffic management, structural work and other stuff that people can't see. All the public ever notice are that after a year of roadworks, the signs and lines are a bit different and they need to be guided through it because they can never cope with change.

But when physical widening costs five times as much as the addition of ALR to an already wide expanse of tarmac (parts of the M1 are now being built as controlled D4M with the possibility of future D5 ALR) I absolutely think they've gone with the best option.

But, I'm sure you all know how we love being called incompetent...
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

Stop Press on M2M in Melbourne Australia -

Quite topically, since we've been discussing M2M on the forum for the last week, it was announced today that there will soon be ten sites where motorway-to-motorway free-flow connectors are metered, not just the three that I have mentioned so far. On TV news the start date was given as December, but I suspect that might be just the first three.

The sites are M3/M1 (2 ramps), M2/M1 (2 ramps), M79/M80 (3 ramps), M2/M80 (3 ramps). Again, VicRoads stresses that their results unequivocally prove the benefit.

(24-12-2017 edited number of ramps)
Last edited by Peter Freeman on Mon Dec 25, 2017 01:32, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

The first M2M site in Victoria, Australia, has now been switched on. It is at the merge of M2 (Tullamarine Freeway) into M1 (Westgate Freeway) eastbound. I have passed through it while active once so far, but not while it was stressed.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

The additional nine M2M sites in Melbourne will be -
  • M3 northbound to M1 (Monash Fwy) westbound
    M3 southbound to M1 (Monash Fwy) westbound

    M1 (Westgate Fwy) eastbound to M2 northbound

    M80 (Ring Road) clockwise to M2 northbound
    M80 (Ring Road) anti-clockwise to M2 northbound
    M80 (Ring Road) anti-clockwise to M2 southbound

    M80 (Ring Road) clockwise to M79 eastbound
    M79 eastbound to M80 (Ring Road) clockwise
    M79 westbound to M80 (Ring Road) anti-clockwise
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by daveNW »

Was away for xmas and came back to see these camera implemented.
Long term reader/lurker, never posted.
I drive past the croft interchange every day and am subject to traffic lights slips when joining the M6 from more minor roads.
The big difference is that these also have red light cameras on them. First time I've ever seen that on a motorway !!
So I thought I'd add my two pence as a local.

Perhaps you've experienced the "green light starting race" on slips and certainly witnessed just how many people ignore the red light.
I dont fancy going that way in the morning to see just how they work, but similar to others earlier in the thread I have concerns over coming round the M6 SB to M62 EB junction and finding stationary traffic. Perhaps on a weekend when everything looks clear but for some reasosn the lights are in operation.
These systems are not fool proof.
I've been subject to 20mph limit signs on smart motorways in the UK with zero traffic and people flying past me just ignoring them - seemingly a sign malfunction as the cameras didnt flash.
Or people who accel/decel between gantaries and know which ones have cameras and which dont. They should be average speed not instant speed.
It's not a great experience when do you the right thing and the system isn't working. There is little margin for error coming around that free flow slip at 70mph and finding stationary traffic.

Having driven the rush hour route past Croft for some 10 years I've seen the traffic level changes. It seems to me that there was never a problem going M6 SB to M62 EB/WB, it was always M6 NB. And that was solved by having a dedicated lane for approx 2-3km to leave the M6. Over time in the mornings people are now queuing NB to get on to the M62 but never SB. The M6 SB problems are caused by the close proximity of Croft and Winnick junctions. People trying to get on fighting people trying to get off. Perhaps it really needed something like the changes on M60 J12-J10 and elsewhere to seperate through traffic from that using the junctions. Widening - sorry for swearing!
The Croft junction however very rarely ever backed up onto the M6 SB regardless of what the M62 was doing on a normal day. Soon as you are past that on a morning it all clears. Till the M62 traffic joining the M6 SB adds more vehicles and with the 4 lanes people forget to use the first two of them as normal.

Again as its' been said previously in this thread and elsewhere. This part of the NW M62 primarily suffers from missing the M60 motorway bypass around Manchester which will never get built and the lack of bridges over the Manchester canal in all major locations, forcing often what could be local traffic onto the motorways or down funnel routes. If you go through Warrington end to end, all traffic goes over one "bridge"/roundabout system in the town centre.
Tolling the new Runcorn bridge has had a huge impact on the town and motorway traffic in the area too as people look to avoid that route to save the cost, even misguidedly.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

Virtually all ten sites of M2M metering are now active in Melbourne Australia. They are a part of (what VicRoads claim to be, and I think they're correct) the world's most extensive and comprehensive managed urban motorway scheme. Comprehensive ramp metering is the main distinction of this system from otherwise similar smart motorway implementations elsewhere (eg UK). However, a puzzling omission is automatic camera enforcement of VSL and red-X indications.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Peter Freeman »

All the M2M metering locations in Melbourne have now been switched on, as well as many more new on-ramp meters associated with various recent improvement schemes. My assessment is that the ramp ones generally are beneficial, though they are not well-tuned and they do cause some collateral congestion, while the ones on M2M connectors are, from observations so far, NOT beneficial.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by jackal »

So if I'm reading this right, the lights have now been turned off, seemingly permanently:
With the early stages of construction of the smart motorway upgrade on the M62 between junctions 10 (Croft) and 12 (Eccles) now underway, electronic signs at Croft Interchange - where the M62 (junction 10) meets the M6 (junction 21a) - and traffic lights on the motorway link roads from the northbound and southbound M6 have now been switched off.

This concludes our 'motorway to motorway metering' pilot scheme, which began in November last year - see 'scheme in detail' for more information.
If so I applaud this outbreak of common sense.

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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by c2R »

jackal wrote: Tue Oct 09, 2018 16:44 So if I'm reading this right, the lights have now been turned off, seemingly permanently:
With the early stages of construction of the smart motorway upgrade on the M62 between junctions 10 (Croft) and 12 (Eccles) now underway, electronic signs at Croft Interchange - where the M62 (junction 10) meets the M6 (junction 21a) - and traffic lights on the motorway link roads from the northbound and southbound M6 have now been switched off.

This concludes our 'motorway to motorway metering' pilot scheme, which began in November last year - see 'scheme in detail' for more information.
If so I applaud this outbreak of common sense.

https://highwaysengland.co.uk/projects/ ... background
It looks like they've turned them off so that they can analyse the results of the test in detail, publishing in 2018/9... it'll be interesting to see what is concluded...
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by A303Chris »

Well after reading the last two comments this, FoI response from the HE now makes sense as the red light cameras have been taken out. I may be jumping up the wrong tree but if the cameras have been taken out, does this suggest that they will not be putting the signals back on.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Bryn666 »

A303Chris wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 12:53 Well after reading the last two comments this, FoI response from the HE now makes sense as the red light cameras have been taken out. I may be jumping up the wrong tree but if the cameras have been taken out, does this suggest that they will not be putting the signals back on.
All of the ramp metering equipment has been taken out, including the signal poles.
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by AndyB »

That’s curious - but then again most new signal poles are set into specially made boxes set in the ground so it’s relatively easy to remove the poles.

Obviously any loops in the road will still be present, what about roadside equipment cases?
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by Bryn666 »

AndyB wrote: Mon Nov 12, 2018 18:16 That’s curious - but then again most new signal poles are set into specially made boxes set in the ground so it’s relatively easy to remove the poles.

Obviously any loops in the road will still be present, what about roadside equipment cases?
Hard to really spot when passing by at 60 mph! I'll keep an eye out next time I'm over that way (probably next week if not this).
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Re: Motorway to motorway (M2M) metering pilot scheme M62 junction 10 (Croft Interchange)

Post by fras »

So yet another complete waste of the taxpayer's money !
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