Has there ever been a proposal to bypass Dundee Kingsway West?

[Bertiebus]

Just an idle thought on negotiating Kingsway West in Dundee this weekend. Has there ever been any proposal to bypass it by rerouting the A90? On a cursory inspection of the OS map, coming southbound such a road could leave the existing A90 somewhere around Tealing and head southwest-ish, clip the western edges of Bridgefoot, Muirhead and Liff, before turning south to rejoin the existing A90 somewhere around Longforgan.

By routing the A90 traffic heading north and south away from Dundee, Kingsway would be much less busy, leaving it far better able to cope with just the local and A92 traffic than the current regular snarl-ups around the Shell garage traffic lights, which are caused with all the A90 traffic being in the mix as well.

Or am I talking dreamland wibble?

[cb a1]

It's known as the Dundee Northern Relief Road.

There's mention of if in the 1993 Trunk and Key Principal Route Study and more recently in the 2007 Strategic Transport Projects Review.

[Altnabreac]

It's known as the Dundee Northern Relief Road.

There's mention of if in the 1993 Trunk and Key Principal Route Study and more recently in the 2007 Strategic Transport Projects Review.

I'd expect it to be re-emphasised in the new Strategic Transport Projects Review and for a start to be made on some initial design work in the next 5 years or so even if it is unlikely to progress much until the A9 and A96 dualling are much further advanced.

[orudge]

I've got some fantasy maps I've created of a Dundee bypass, which I'll perhaps upload sometime.

In reality though, as stated, it's case of wait and see if the project ends up being promoted from a suggestion in the STPR to an actual implementation. Of course, the other possible option which is noted in the review is grade-separation of the existing junctions through Dundee - much more tricky though, I'd have thought, and wouldn't offer the same benefit in terms of traffic reduction.

[Burns]

What we need to do is completely rethink the way we bypass our cities. Instead of building a new road to the north, which would destroy attractive countryside and make life worse for the people who'd lose their houses or end up next to an extension of the M90, we need to start burrowing under. Bypasses often mean people don't go near the towns and cities they pass but with a tunnel right under the middle of the city, fully connected to the centre with a string of extravagant slip roads, you can create a situation where through traffic has a twin bore with three lanes in both directions in which to speed under the city and those who wish to stop off in the centre of Dundee can also make use of the free-flowing slip roads - adding to the cities' economy. Another advantage is that if you tie the free-flow slip roads with the Tay Road Bridge, those travelling over from Fife can also make use of the bypass, avoiding the need to battle the city centre traffic lights when all they really want to do is head north.

[Halmyre]

I've got some fantasy maps I've created of a Dundee bypass, which I'll perhaps upload sometime.

In reality though, as stated, it's case of wait and see if the project ends up being promoted from a suggestion in the STPR to an actual implementation. Of course, the other possible option which is noted in the review is grade-separation of the existing junctions through Dundee - much more tricky though, I'd have thought, and wouldn't offer the same benefit in terms of traffic reduction.

Bit tight for a GSJ at Strathmartine Road, surely?

[orudge]

To be honest I don't think any of the roundabouts would be overly easy to grade separate without lots of compulsory purchases. Strathmartine Road particularly so! Old Glamis Road would be a bit of a squeeze, and some kind of bypassing of the Forfar Road lights would be possible I'm sure but would result in the loss of the football fields. I'm not sure what you'd then do with the lights and roundabouts north of there...

(Interestingly Google Maps still has the old double-roundabouts on the satellite imagery; it's obviously not been updated in some time! Also still has a roundabout at Claverhouse Road - and as a complete aside, here's a neat aerial photograph from the 70s of Forfar Road, pre-dualling with provision for the 2nd carriageway.)

A proper Dundee bypass, at least from the A90 to the A90, would definitely be better I think. If it's anything like the AWPR though, even if plans start being made in the next 5 years or so, I would fully expect to be waiting at least a decade for all the legal challenges to take their course...

[jackal]

What we need to do is completely rethink the way we bypass our cities. Instead of building a new road to the north, which would destroy attractive countryside and make life worse for the people who'd lose their houses or end up next to an extension of the M90, we need to start burrowing under. Bypasses often mean people don't go near the towns and cities they pass but with a tunnel right under the middle of the city, fully connected to the centre with a string of extravagant slip roads, you can create a situation where through traffic has a twin bore with three lanes in both directions in which to speed under the city and those who wish to stop off in the centre of Dundee can also make use of the free-flowing slip roads - adding to the cities' economy. Another advantage is that if you tie the free-flow slip roads with the Tay Road Bridge, those travelling over from Fife can also make use of the bypass, avoiding the need to battle the city centre traffic lights when all they really want to do is head north.

The problem is that this increases costs by five to ten times. Given the transport budget is unlikely to rise accordingly that means you're going to only build a small fraction of what you would otherwise. For instance, the AWPR would cost maybe £5bn rather than £745m, so you'd have to have found £4.5bn of 'savings' from other schemes. Dropping the M8 completion, A9 dualling, and A96 dualling ought to cover it. Oh, and for financing reasons you'd have to push back the AWPR completion to around 2030...

[Bertiebus]

Thanks all for the typically interesting and knowledgeable replies. I always have to look at a map when you folk talk road names - I invariably know junctions by a landmark I happen to notice nearby. Examples on Kingsway West include 'the Shell garage traffic lights', 'the one by the college', 'the car wash roundabout', 'the junction by Keepsafe', etc. To me the A85 junction is simply 'the last* Dundee roundabout'. All which are, of course, complete gibberish to anyone who doesn't know the road. The only road name in Dundee I ever remember is Clepington Road, I have no idea why.

My two penn'orth regarding tunnels is that I think they are fine with a nice hill to go through which you can do with a TBM (Hindhead and Southwick spring to mind), but when there isn't a significant rise in the ground I would think many road builders would cut costs by using the 'cut and cover' method - which defeats the object by destroying what you want to protect, replacing it with a new (and probably very different) covering afterwards.

*Or first, depending on direction of travel

[Bertiebus]

(Interestingly Google Maps still has the old double-roundabouts on the satellite imagery; it's obviously not been updated in some time! Also still has a roundabout at Claverhouse Road - and as a complete aside, here's a neat aerial photograph from the 70s of Forfar Road, pre-dualling with provision for the 2nd carriageway.)

Fascinating - I love pics like that. Never realised there were four blocks where the Morrison's garage is now, I only remember the last one before it too was demolished.

I think the timeline feature on Google Earth still features the previous building on the site where the big Tesco now is. I couldn't make out what it was, though. I know the area was a triangle of land where the branch line to Newtyle and the Strathmore main line joined the freight branch that headed east, parallel with Clepington Road.

[Was92now625]

The problem is that this increases costs by five to ten times.

As little as that ???

[Truvelo]

The cost wouldn't be worth it and it would add local and through traffic to the mix. A new bypass is the only real answer. The existing bypass is already breached by development and possibly was from day one. As much as I would like to see it fully GSJ'd and the 40mph limit returned to 50 I just don't see it competing with an NSL outer bypass.

[novaecosse]

(Interestingly Google Maps still has the old double-roundabouts on the satellite imagery; it's obviously not been updated in some time! Also still has a roundabout at Claverhouse Road - and as a complete aside, here's a neat aerial photograph from the 70s of Forfar Road, pre-dualling with provision for the 2nd carriageway.)

Fascinating - I love pics like that. Never realised there were four blocks where the Morrison's garage is now, I only remember the last one before it too was demolished.

I think the timeline feature on Google Earth still features the previous building on the site where the big Tesco now is. I couldn't make out what it was, though. I know the area was a triangle of land where the branch line to Newtyle and the Strathmore main line joined the freight branch that headed east, parallel with Clepington Road.

Brown and Tawse steel yard was previously on the site of the Tesco Extra on the Kingsway. Next door was the old Wm Low supermarket, which was built on the site of the old Dundee Ice Rink.
Texas Homecare took up a site adjacent, with MFI behind. Great Mills DIY building is now Toy's R Us/Boots/Halfords. The other building with Maplin, was IIRC a Clydesdale Electrical with possibly a furniture store next door. The rest of the Retail Park didn't exist.
I think Burger King opened in 1994 or 1995, I should know this, as I was one of the original staff when it opened!

[B9127]

The bigger problem with the section of the Kingsway from Strathmartine Road to Forfar road junctions is that there is an interceptor sewer in the central reservation along the full length - around 5/6m deep - one of the first jobs by Brown Construction - the wide central reservation was for future extensions to the tram system. There are some early photos of the Kingsway if I can find them

[Burns]

Just for clarification, the idea of a D3 super tunnel bypass of Dundee with a web of slips burrowing under the city was meant as a joke.

[stuartf]

When they built the railway tunnel through Dundee Law they tried to pay for it by selling the extracted stone as paving slabs. Sadly the stone proved to be poorer quality than they expected and they made a massive loss. Any alternative ideas for funding tunnels would be gratefully received.

https://en-gb.facebook.com/DundeeLawTun ... 2264971789
http://www.forgottenrelics.co.uk/tunnels/law.html

[Nwallace]

The probably wont be many properties in the DNRR path if the route is chosen carefully it should be possible to take only agricultural and waste land, the trickiest bit is likely to be getting round birkhill without smashing through campy and templeton.

Also there are NO roundabouts in Dundee.

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[cb a1]

Also there are NO roundabouts in Dundee.

Are you sure? I could have sworn my son used to play on one at the play park when he was wee.

[Nwallace]

Also there are NO roundabouts in Dundee.

Are you sure? I could have sworn my son used to play on one at the play park when he was wee.

Strictly in the sense of traffic flow control devices; the playground apparatus are another matter!

[themadhatter]

Did anyone ever post any maps anywhere for this? Dundee needs a bypass pretty desperately; Kingsway is a real bottleneck to the NE, particularly now the Aberdeen bypass is open. I do find it difficult though to imagine a route, particularly around Muirhead. And then there's getting through the Sidlaws. A bit of a megaproject, and one which I doubt will ever be started.