botched road markings

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Chris5156
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Re: botched road markings

Post by Chris5156 » Wed Oct 09, 2019 14:22

jackal wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 13:43
There's an interesting give way at a roundabout on Stephenson Way, Watford:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.66442 ... 312!8i6656
I've seen that in a few other places in the last five years or so. The A205/A20 roundabout near Kidbrooke in SE London is another. I'm fairly sure I used one like that somewhere on the A414 around Hertford yesterday too. I'm not sure what it achieves.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by jackal » Wed Oct 09, 2019 14:35

Chris5156 wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 14:22
jackal wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 13:43
There's an interesting give way at a roundabout on Stephenson Way, Watford:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.66442 ... 312!8i6656
I've seen that in a few other places in the last five years or so. The A205/A20 roundabout near Kidbrooke in SE London is another. I'm fairly sure I used one like that somewhere on the A414 around Hertford yesterday too. I'm not sure what it achieves.
A grid for boy racers? :shock:

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Re: botched road markings

Post by yen_powell » Wed Oct 09, 2019 17:00

Brenley Corner wrote:
Wed Oct 09, 2019 13:51
yen_powell wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 20:37
SouthWest Philip wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 20:19

Ah, but is it a double white line or is it a tiger tail marking that's to narrow to fit the chevrons/hatching between the lines? It's pretty clear the intended meaning is 'stay in lane' (with signs stating this too).
Don't think so, I think they have a minimum width. I'd look in my 2016 regs but it's a car crash of a document. I think Stay in Lane signs are only allowed in road works, but I may be wrong.
It seems to be common practice in tunnels and long underpasses. Here are double lines at the Dartford Tunnel: https://goo.gl/maps/LSW35yhNdPv2zzUv7
I regularly cross them in Dartford Tunnel, the traffic is always stop starting when I go through it and I don't want to be at the back of a queue on a motorbike, some people are too busy to look ahead of them when driving. I only use it on Sundays when returning from various events in Kent or Sussex. It's rammed then, god knows what it is like on a normal working day!

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Rambo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 21:45

I have always found this peculiar. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2973889 ... 312!8i6656
A single track road but the white centre lines carry on part way down the lane even though there is absolutely no chance you could pass another vehicle along there.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by someone » Wed Dec 18, 2019 22:20

Rambo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 21:45
I have always found this peculiar. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2973889 ... 312!8i6656
A single track road but the white centre lines carry on part way down the lane even though there is absolutely no chance you could pass another vehicle along there.
That is a warning line. It is used in that instance as the road is approaching a junction, and is less about separating traffic and more about warning of the hazard.

Normal centre lines are not used on roads under 5.5m wide, but warning ones should be used on any road 2.75m wide or greater. That is why that line disappears after a certain distance rather than be replaced by a normal centre line.

Warning lines are not used on roads under 2.75m wide because then the give way or stop line will cross the full width of the road instead, so they have no centre to line.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Rambo » Wed Dec 18, 2019 22:36

Thanks for the explaination. I'd never seen these extend so far up a single track lane before.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Chris5156 » Thu Dec 19, 2019 13:00

someone wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 22:20
Rambo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 21:45
I have always found this peculiar. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2973889 ... 312!8i6656
A single track road but the white centre lines carry on part way down the lane even though there is absolutely no chance you could pass another vehicle along there.
That is a warning line. It is used in that instance as the road is approaching a junction, and is less about separating traffic and more about warning of the hazard.
There's an even more extreme (and silly) example near Godalming here.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Rambo » Thu Dec 19, 2019 15:40

Chris5156 wrote:
Thu Dec 19, 2019 13:00
someone wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 22:20
Rambo wrote:
Wed Dec 18, 2019 21:45
I have always found this peculiar. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2973889 ... 312!8i6656
A single track road but the white centre lines carry on part way down the lane even though there is absolutely no chance you could pass another vehicle along there.
That is a warning line. It is used in that instance as the road is approaching a junction, and is less about separating traffic and more about warning of the hazard.
There's an even more extreme (and silly) example near Godalming here.
Thats rather OTT !

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Dec 20, 2019 14:36

A Give Way ahead assembly would be less stupid than putting warning lines down the centre of a single track road. Another classic example where rigid standards adherence makes a designer look like a twit.
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Re: botched road markings

Post by nowster » Fri Dec 20, 2019 16:01

Bryn666 wrote:A Give Way ahead assembly would be less stupid than putting warning lines down the centre of a single track road. Another classic example where rigid standards adherence makes a designer look like a twit.
All give way and stop markings in Ireland seem to have a centre line, regardless of the width of the road.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Johnathan404 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 18:37

Two lanes when joining an S2 at M53 J6

I'm not surprised it was originally marked like that - originally there probably weren't even any give way markings - but I think it's really poor that it has been renewed without being rectified. Thankfully it's a very low traffic site, but visibility would be poor if somebody did end up on the wrong side of the road.
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Re: botched road markings

Post by skiddaw05 » Fri Jan 03, 2020 23:40

Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 18:37
Two lanes when joining an S2 at M53 J6

I'm not surprised it was originally marked like that - originally there probably weren't even any give way markings - but I think it's really poor that it has been renewed without being rectified. Thankfully it's a very low traffic site, but visibility would be poor if somebody did end up on the wrong side of the road.
Gosh that's nasty. At first glance, with the barrier over on the other side, it even looks a bit like a dual carriageway

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Bryn666 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 11:41

skiddaw05 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 23:40
Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 18:37
Two lanes when joining an S2 at M53 J6

I'm not surprised it was originally marked like that - originally there probably weren't even any give way markings - but I think it's really poor that it has been renewed without being rectified. Thankfully it's a very low traffic site, but visibility would be poor if somebody did end up on the wrong side of the road.
Gosh that's nasty. At first glance, with the barrier over on the other side, it even looks a bit like a dual carriageway
I'd hold the designer personally liable given the fact that is utterly misleading.

The two way traffic ahead sign beforehand suggests someone has realised the issue but not looked at the markings.

This is typical HE though. Marking this junction in accordance with the overdesigned DMRB would require the whole thing to be dualled as this kind of single carriageway GSJ isn't allowed. So instead of applying some common sense they just renew what was there in 1971 and hope it goes away on its own.

They really are a shambles.
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Re: botched road markings

Post by jervi » Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:11

Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 18:37
Two lanes when joining an S2 at M53 J6

I'm not surprised it was originally marked like that - originally there probably weren't even any give way markings - but I think it's really poor that it has been renewed without being rectified. Thankfully it's a very low traffic site, but visibility would be poor if somebody did end up on the wrong side of the road.
M53J6.PNG
Looking at crash data for the last 20 years, there has only been two crashes at that giveway line. A minor in 2005 and a major in 2018. And that junction is pretty low for all crashes. Westbound 2 on diverge and 4 on merge, Eastbound diverge 4 (although this could be merging traffic from J5) and 0 on merge.
Why was the slip road ever marked as two lanes anyway? Its not like it would have that much traffic.
While trumpet junction in the UK that lead onto a S2 is uncommon, why couldn't they have a short bit of D1 like here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.01737 ... authuser=0

[edit] After searching through the wiki for Trumpet Junctions, I only found 1 which terminates onto a Single Carriageway immediately https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2 ... 3095?hl=en
A few are dual carriageway for a short distance to a roundabout, after the roundabout they are single carriageway, which isn't quite the same.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Johnathan404 » Sat Jan 04, 2020 14:15

Update & apologies - I take it back - the latest Street View imagery shows that it has been fixed! :clap:

It is still interesting that such a layout could be ignored so long.
jervi wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:11
Looking at crash data for the last 20 years, there has only been two crashes at that giveway line. A minor in 2005 and a major in 2018. And that junction is pretty low for all crashes. Westbound 2 on diverge and 4 on merge, Eastbound diverge 4 (although this could be merging traffic from J5) and 0 on merge.
It's hardly a surprise that there have been few collisions here, given that this junction is extremely quiet, compared with other British motorway exits. This doesn't mean that we can build quiet roads dangerously, especially when it's totally unnecessary to do so.

As Bryn says, the Highways Agency clearly identified the problem, because they put extra warning signs up. They just decided to renew the problem markings anyway, rather than simply fix them.
jervi wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:11
While trumpet junction in the UK that lead onto a S2 is uncommon, why couldn't they have a short bit of D1 like here https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.01737 ... authuser=0
You are comparing a road which was built in the 1980s with one which was built in the 1960s. Design standards were lower then. What's odd is that they bothered to dual the loop; many other junctions built at this time didn't do this. This means the single carriageway sections are the two bridges, which would be the most expensive parts to dual.
jervi wrote:
Sat Jan 04, 2020 12:11
[edit] After searching through the wiki for Trumpet Junctions, I only found 1 which terminates onto a Single Carriageway immediately https://www.google.com/maps/place/51%C2 ... 3095?hl=en
A few are dual carriageway for a short distance to a roundabout, after the roundabout they are single carriageway, which isn't quite the same.
There are loads of old-fashioned trumpet layouts, especially if you include variations of the trumpet.

M40 J8 is an obvious one.
M8 J5
The original A1/A14 was a good one.
The original A1(M) J2
A303/A343
and many others...
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Re: botched road markings

Post by Fenlander » Mon Jan 06, 2020 12:05

It's a bit more than just markings as there was hard changes too but have a look at this view of the A16 south exit of Sutterton roundabout, first the County Council spent a lot of money widening the exit to create 2 lanes (which very quickly returned to 1) and then the local council gave planning approval for a services between the A16S and A17N which meant massive changes to the entries and exits undoing all the good work and creating some horrible conflicts. Click away through the various views since 2018 and yo can see the changes that have been made over that time.

There's another set of conflicts created when coming from the A16 there heading towards Boston, bothe lanes are marked as straight on to stay on the A16 with the left lane also being the A17N, you frequently get 2 cars side by side doing that and then a car enter from the A17 into the gap created by the A17 leaver, a quite normal thing to happen at a roundabout. Thing is the one entering from the A17 is probably continuing on the A17 and is in the left hand lane as that's what the markings say. At this point the one in the LH lane is going round the roundabout past the next (A16 Boston) exit but the one in the RH lane will be leaving at that exit! Somehow the 2 streams are supposed to swap without driving through each other.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by someone » Mon Jan 06, 2020 17:15

I almost always use lane two at that roundabout to stay on the A16 eastbound and have never had a problem with traffic in lane one not turning off there also.

A17 to A17 southbound is a right turn on the roundabout, so it certainly used to be marked on approach that the left lane is the A16 E and the right lane to stay on the A17, which avoids ay conflict.

On many dual carriageways that make a right turn at a roundabout with only a single local road joining in between, most drivers seem to ignore the instructions to also use the left lane. So even if the markings at Sutterton have changed, it would not be surprising if many drivers ignore them and still used the normal "correct lane" at the roundabout.

What are the conflicts with the new services? They have the exact same arrangement as the older ones, and mean that traveling on the A17 northbound or A16 eastbound you no longer need to do a full loop of the roundabout on entry or exit.

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Re: botched road markings

Post by TomJ » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:02

I've always found it interesting how they managed to miss off a digit on the markings for this roundabout by Staples Corner. Those lanes go to the A406, not the A40 (unless of course you're going all the way to Hangar Lane... :lol: )

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Rambo » Tue Jan 07, 2020 17:38

Johnathan404 wrote:
Fri Jan 03, 2020 18:37
Two lanes when joining an S2 at M53 J6

I'm not surprised it was originally marked like that - originally there probably weren't even any give way markings - but I think it's really poor that it has been renewed without being rectified. Thankfully it's a very low traffic site, but visibility would be poor if somebody did end up on the wrong side of the road.
Having used that junction a lot. It's a ridiculously over complicated design especially for it's low usage and purpose (Oil / Car industry around Eastham) although said industry has heavily reduced in the last few decades.
The two curved slip roads on the west side for entering and exiting always seem a bit odd even though they are slightly separated by a kerb towards the top.
In fact Ellesmere Port has some right odd road layouts and one way systems. Like this joining a slip road one way only https://www.google.com/maps/@53.28799,- ... 384!8i8192
And this left turn off the northbound slip on the other side of the M53 is a bit odd. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2871747 ... 312!8i6656

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Re: botched road markings

Post by Johnathan404 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 23:34

The A303 has one lane, with one lane appearing announced on the left, and a warning that the lane on the right is closing, but actually it stays as two lanes.
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