A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

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Herned
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Fri Jan 10, 2020 14:38

jackal wrote:
Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:16
Dig deeper still and it's really a London public transport/everything else divide. London railway spending in particular is astronomical - per capita more than twice as much as total transport spending in the rest of England.
This is only true right now, and possibly for the decade just gone, as two massive rail projects have been under way. I don't imagine that the situation would be remotely the same in any previous post-war decade

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Fri Jan 10, 2020 14:41

Bryn666 wrote:
Wed Jan 08, 2020 20:15
And people in the south think Johnson will actually spend money up here?

There'll be talk and talk and some more talk but nothing will actually change.
I have a belief they will do something relatively dramatic before the next election, as the political benefits of being able to point at something tangible are huge. I share your cynicism about there being a long term change in how infrastructure spending works though

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 15:05

I'd expect lots of crazy and undeliverable ideas that experts will be blamed for not delivering. The current crusade is clearly anti-intellectualism which is a staple with hard right authoritarian governments.

It's not that a bridge to NI is virtually impossible to build for a sane price, it's that experts didn't believe in British ingenuity.

Just watch. They'll wheel out realists "talking the North down" as the excuse for not doing anything insane whilst simple projects don't get a look in.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by JohnnyMo » Fri Jan 10, 2020 16:54

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 15:05
I'd expect lots of crazy and undeliverable ideas that experts will be blamed for not delivering. The current crusade is clearly anti-intellectualism which is a staple with hard right authoritarian governments.

It's not that a bridge to NI is virtually impossible to build for a sane price, it's that experts didn't believe in British ingenuity.

Just watch. They'll wheel out realists "talking the North down" as the excuse for not doing anything insane whilst simple projects don't get a look in.
What I never understand is why things cost so much in the UK: the Viaduc de Millau cost less than €400M; the A14 upgrade is almost 4 times that.
Now which looks the most impressive one of the engineering wonders of the modern world or widening 21 miles of dual carriageway, or just over 5 miles if we divide the A14 upgrade in 4 sections.

ThamesLink cost £7M, about 20 times the cost of the Viaduc de Millau -- How about 10 Viaduc de Millau (12 miles long) striding across the London Skyline that would look impressive.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Big L » Fri Jan 10, 2020 17:58

JohnnyMo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 16:54

What I never understand is why things cost so much in the UK: the Viaduc de Millau cost less than €400M; the A14 upgrade is almost 4 times that.
Now which looks the most impressive one of the engineering wonders of the modern world or widening 21 miles of dual carriageway, or just over 5 miles if we divide the A14 upgrade in 4 sections.

ThamesLink cost £7M, about 20 times the cost of the Viaduc de Millau -- How about 10 Viaduc de Millau (12 miles long) striding across the London Skyline that would look impressive.
Apples and oranges.

Thameslink was in 1988, cost around £55m using largely existing but disused infrastructure. Unless you mean the "Thameslink Program", a huge upgrade lasting through the 2010s, costing £6-7 billion.

Millau was 2004.
Make poetry history.

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 18:22

And land acquisition costs in the Tarn valley were minimal too.

Most of our costs are before an inch of road appears. Land purchase and utilities diversions will sink any scheme quick in the UK - we need to address why and fast.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Fri Jan 10, 2020 18:41

Bryn666 wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 18:22
And land acquisition costs in the Tarn valley were minimal too.

Most of our costs are before an inch of road appears. Land purchase and utilities diversions will sink any scheme quick in the UK - we need to address why and fast.
Land costs in rural areas may be a lot more than elsewhere, but they don't go anywhere near explaining cost differences. 1km of dual carriageway needs 5 or 6 hectares of land, of which the most expensive in the country is £50k. So only £250k more than completely free land.

Even if you call it £1m per km to allow for costs and compensation, it doesn't come near explaining why a km of dual carriageway costs £30m here vs £5m in France

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Bryn666 » Fri Jan 10, 2020 18:48

Contractor supervision, consultancy fees, contingencies is my guess, as I said most of the costs are soaked before a single inch of road is actually built.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Fri Jan 10, 2020 20:00

One thing that has crossed my mind is how much the cost of hiring in all the equipment adds up to, compared to if it were owned by the company and amortised over x number of contracts

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by JohnnyMo » Fri Jan 10, 2020 20:22

Big L wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 17:58
JohnnyMo wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 16:54

What I never understand is why things cost so much in the UK: the Viaduc de Millau cost less than €400M; the A14 upgrade is almost 4 times that.
Now which looks the most impressive one of the engineering wonders of the modern world or widening 21 miles of dual carriageway, or just over 5 miles if we divide the A14 upgrade in 4 sections.

ThamesLink cost £7M, about 20 times the cost of the Viaduc de Millau -- How about 10 Viaduc de Millau (12 miles long) striding across the London Skyline that would look impressive.
Apples and oranges.

Thameslink was in 1988, cost around £55m using largely existing but disused infrastructure. Unless you mean the "Thameslink Program", a huge upgrade lasting through the 2010s, costing £6-7 billion.

Millau was 2004.
Sorry I mean £7B (Billion) not £7M -- €400M x 20 is €8B or about £7B
Yes I know the "Thameslink Program" was a huge upgrade, many platforms needed extending, track relaid and on a live railway, but it was ridiculously expensive. But not as bad as the £18B CrossRail will cost.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by JohnnyMo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 16:30

Herned wrote:
Fri Jan 10, 2020 20:00
One thing that has crossed my mind is how much the cost of hiring in all the equipment adds up to, compared to if it were owned by the company and amortised over x number of contracts
The hire company will amortised it over x number of contracts, yes it will make a profit but I doubt it will be excessive or another company will undercut it. Ideally the equipment will be employed more frequently as it can be hired out to different companies cutting costs overall.

This is like the op-com / prop-com model for many businesses where the operation company (op-com) does what it does best but the office/factory is owned by a property company (prop-com).

The idea is the op-com has more capital to invest in the business. Yes it has more overheads but is more nimble.
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Sat Jan 11, 2020 21:08

JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 16:30
The hire company will amortised it over x number of contracts, yes it will make a profit but I doubt it will be excessive or another company will undercut it. Ideally the equipment will be employed more frequently as it can be hired out to different companies cutting costs overall.
They do make quite a good return I believe, but that's not really the point. I suspect it is vastly more expensive for the equipment to be hired than if it was owned, as every company does that then essentially the cost is passed through to the client regardless. For example, for a quick web search, a basic JCB costs about £500 per day to hire, but brand new it's £60k, at that day rate it is paid for in 120 days. I'm pretty sure they last longer than that!

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by JohnnyMo » Sat Jan 11, 2020 21:48

Herned wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 21:08
JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 16:30
The hire company will amortised it over x number of contracts, yes it will make a profit but I doubt it will be excessive or another company will undercut it. Ideally the equipment will be employed more frequently as it can be hired out to different companies cutting costs overall.
They do make quite a good return I believe, but that's not really the point. I suspect it is vastly more expensive for the equipment to be hired than if it was owned, as every company does that then essentially the cost is passed through to the client regardless. For example, for a quick web search, a basic JCB costs about £500 per day to hire, but brand new it's £60k, at that day rate it is paid for in 120 days. I'm pretty sure they last longer than that!
Add in the cost of a maintenance contract to have the machine services, interest on the capital ... If the machine breaks down you don't get your £500 until it is fixed maybe with a penalty clause. The economic life expectancy is 5 years or 10,000 hours ( just over 1000 days )

There is nothing forcing companies to hire their equipment so it must make economic sense to do so.

In the same way I would not get a car via a PCP scheme, but the majority of new cars are acquired that way. If it make sense for them that OK with me but I prefer to buy the car outright and run it for its' economic life
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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Berk » Sat Jan 11, 2020 22:24

That means you end up taking a hit for the major services, and things that would be covered by the warranty or service package.

The packages are usually offered at a discount with the finance, making them cheaper to buy.

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Herned » Sun Jan 12, 2020 00:33

JohnnyMo wrote:
Sat Jan 11, 2020 21:48

There is nothing forcing companies to hire their equipment so it must make economic sense to do so.
The tax system does, it makes much more sense to hire equipment than own it, in the same way no one owns their own premises. It has nothing to do with the actual economics of the situation

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by roadphotos » Sat Feb 01, 2020 02:01

I wonder what will happen to this long awaited scheme now that the Government has ordered a review of all smart motorways

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Berk » Sat Feb 01, 2020 02:08

It would be nice if it was put on hold for another year, like Brexit.

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by jackal » Tue Mar 03, 2020 11:54

roadphotos wrote:
Sat Feb 01, 2020 02:01
I wonder what will happen to this long awaited scheme now that the Government has ordered a review of all smart motorways
Starts construction this month:

https://www.hemeltoday.co.uk/news/polit ... nd-2042618

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by thatapanydude » Fri Aug 07, 2020 20:08

"....We are now informed that the work on A1(M) has been deferred for four or five years...."

Quite big news I guess concerning the A1(M) here. I mean its the right decision if they are going to scale back smart motorways and hopefully reassess the case of full-widening (where reasonable - I don't mean replacing every bridge).

Article is here.
A1/A1(M) >>> M1

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Re: A1(M) Junction 6 to Junction 8 Smart Motorway

Post by Chris5156 » Sat Aug 08, 2020 09:05

thatapanydude wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 20:08
"....We are now informed that the work on A1(M) has been deferred for four or five years...."

Quite big news I guess concerning the A1(M) here. I mean its the right decision if they are going to scale back smart motorways and hopefully reassess the case of full-widening (where reasonable - I don't mean replacing every bridge).

Article is here.
I can't make head nor tail of that - the gist of the article seems to be that Councillor Busybody is unhappy about some social distancing barriers on their local high street and when the paper interviewed them chucked in an unsubstantiated reference to work on the A1(M), which seems to have nothing to do with anything. What are they on about?

Highways England seem to be under the impression that work has already started.

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