Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

[Osthagen]

I'm not sure if anybody else shares this opinion, but I'd say that there are some Primary Destinations that simply don't need to be signed as such. This may be for a number of reasons, among them are size, population or the destination may simply no longer be important. Personally, I think the list of Primary Destinations should consist mainly of towns, cities & key airports.

For unnecessary PDs, my list would include the following:

*Altrincham
*Brent Cross
*Brough
*Colne
*Corbridge
*Erskine Bridge
*Scotch Corner (I've always found it a bit pointless. For some reason, no PDs south of SC are signed until you reach the junction.)
*Speke
*Tay Bridge
*Thamesport
*The City (London; 'Central London', also a PD, would be more than suitable)
* Trafford Park
*(?)Tyne Tunnel

Are there any others? Which PDs do you think are unnecessary?

[si404]

Some of those aren't that worth keeping, others are.

Most notably, for keeping, "The City". It isn't the same as "Central London", and it and "West End"/"Westminster" cover the different parts of Central London (just as Stockton and Middlesbrough do for Teesside) from where the routes split, which might even be outside the Circulars ie at M1 J2 and Tottenham.

I'd argue that Garston and Speke are the most pointless primary destinations - the real destination is the Airport, and there's no need for both.

[JohnnyMo]

Primary Destinations are there to aid drivers, some are important in their own right major cities & regions, others are waypoints.

Another waypoint you may find pointless is Puckeridge

As for shopping centres being counted as primary destinations it says a lot about our society.

[Osthagen]

Another waypoint you may find pointless is Puckeridge

Thankfully, that's no longer a PD!

[Fenlander]

Primary Destinations are there to aid drivers......

As for shopping centres being counted as primary destinations it says a lot about our society.

My dad navigates via pubs (as he used to be on the road servicing equipment in them), my mum on the other hand certainly could navigate by shopping centres.

[Osthagen]

Primary Destinations are there to aid drivers......

As for shopping centres being counted as primary destinations it says a lot about our society.

my mum on the other hand certainly could navigate by shopping centres.

My GF could definitely use Shopping Centres as a system of navigation

[Gareth Thomas]

As much as I hate to say it, Folkestone has been overshadowed by the Channel Tunnel, which dominates signs all over Kent...

[Bryn666]

Trafford Park is not to be confused with the Trafford Centre, although Brent Cross as a PD surely refers to the A41/A406 junction rather than the shopbox...

Colne is a primary destination because a motorway terminates there and there is a split in routes there; the A56 to North Yorkshire and the A6068 to West Yorkshire.

It is, to my mind, more important than Clitheroe, which isn't even on a primary route (the A59 sails straight past it) and has no real strategic importance other than being a picturesque tourist town.

Also, having Lancaster, Heysham, and Morecambe all as primary destinations seems a bit overkill, given Heysham is a village, it should really be "Port of Heysham" that is the destination, as this is where the A683 goes.

[Osthagen]

Trafford Park is not to be confused with the Trafford Centre...

Still not necessary as a Primary Destination though.

Although not a PD, I'm positive that I have seen the Metro Centre on a RCS near Gateshead.

Anyhow, I think we can probably keep Colne and lose Clitheroe.

I'd say some Regional Destinations are a bit pointless. For example, 'South West Scotland' is shown on the junction signs at A74(M) J22 for the A75. I'd say that at that point, the driver is already in SW Scotland.

Also 'The LAKES', although not completely pointless, isn't exactly great as a Reg. Destination.

[KeithW]

Scotch Corner is not any sort of destination BUT it is a primary waypoint on the road system of the North and has been since Roman Times. The same applies to the Erskine Bridge and Tyne Tunnel. Unless you plan on swimming from Wallsend to North Shields you will be wanting to find the Tyne tunnel and if you are heading up the A74(M) intending to drive to Northern Scotland the Erskine Bridge road is where you need to be heading.

[Osthagen]

…if you are heading up the A74(M) intending to drive to Northern Scotland the Erskine Bridge road is where you need to be heading.

Alternatively, we could sign Regional Destinations such as 'The HIGHLANDS' or quite simply 'The NORTH'.

Anyway, I don't think Erskine Bridge is signed on the A74(M) or the M74 for that matter.

Scotch Corner is not any sort of destination BUT it is a primary waypoint on the road system of the North and has been since Roman Times.

The junction doesn't need to be signed. Certainly not from the distance at which it is!
RCS on the A1 should simply have the A66 bracketed, under which some PDs which can be reached along it should be listed.

So, the RCS at J58, for instance, would list:

A1(M)
The SOUTH
Wetherby 48
Leeds 64
(A66)
The LAKES
Penrith 58

Another idea would be to have signs which are separate from RCS on which major junctions are listed.

[Berk]

I've often wondered why Market Deeping isn't a PD, because it is a sizeable town on the A15. The combined local population makes it a little smaller than both Stamford and Spalding.

Neither Deeping or Bourne are PD's, meaning the first PD north of Peterborough is in fact Sleaford, a good 30 miles.

[Stevie D]

Scotch Corner is not any sort of destination BUT it is a primary waypoint on the road system of the North and has been since Roman Times. The same applies to the Erskine Bridge and Tyne Tunnel. Unless you plan on swimming from Wallsend to North Shields you will be wanting to find the Tyne tunnel and if you are heading up the A74(M) intending to drive to Northern Scotland the Erskine Bridge road is where you need to be heading.

The problem is that if you look at most maps (including pretty much all web maps) then places like Scotch Corner, Tay Road Bridge and Teesside are invisible. Yes, A-Z and one or two other paper maps highlight them, but they are sadly of decreasing relevance.

If you're heading north out of Yorkshire or east on the A66, looking at most maps you would expect to see the major towns of Darlington and Middlesbrough on the signs, not a hotel and an ephemeral 'area'.

I might make exceptions for Dartford Crossing and FRB, but I wouldn't have any other road bridges or tunnels as primary. Far better to signpost actual places like Dunfermline and Falkirk that don't require people to already know the route.

[KeithW]

So, the RCS at J58, for instance, would list:

A1(M)
The SOUTH
Wetherby 48
Leeds 64
(A66)
The LAKES
Penrith 58

Another idea would be to have signs which are separate from RCS on which major junctions are listed.

It seems to me that the current sign (unless they have changed it lately) which reads

Scotch Corner
Brough A66
Penrith

Richmond A6108

Is rather clearer. The driver already knows he is southbound on the A1(M) what he needs to know is where the junction will take him. Its entirely possible he/she has no intention of going to that rather nebulous destination 'The Lakes'. Usually when I am heading across the A66 the intention is to either pick up the M6 north at Penrith or turn off at Brough and head south down the M6 at Tebay.

Wetherby is hardly more of a primary destination than Scotch Corner and is much less important as a nexus, especially now that it has been properly bypassed.

[frediculous_biggs]

Thamesport and Trafford Park are both industrial areas so would be an important destination for HGV traffic. It's the reason why Grain is heavily signed in parts of Medway, it's to direct HGV traffic there (before Thamesport was a PD). Incidentally, Thamesport must be the only PD not connected to a primary route or motorway.

[Osthagen]

I might make exceptions for Dartford Crossing and FRB, but I wouldn't have any other road bridges or tunnels as primary.

I'd say I agree on that one. Those are the only two which I'd keep as PDs.

It seems to me that the current sign (unless they have changed it lately) which reads

Scotch Corner
Brough A66
Penrith

Richmond A6108

Is rather clearer. The driver already knows he is southbound on the A1(M) what he needs to know is where the junction will take him.

I have no problem with the name 'Scotch Corner' being listed at the actual junction, I just think it's useless as a PD. I agree that the junction signage is clear and wouldn't change it.

Its entirely possible he/she has no intention of going to that rather nebulous destination 'The Lakes'. Usually when I am heading across the A66 the intention is to either pick up the M6 north at Penrith...

In which case, maybe Carlisle should be signed? It is already on the A66 from Barnard Castle.

[KeithW]

If you're heading north out of Yorkshire or east on the A66, looking at most maps you would expect to see the major towns of Darlington and Middlesbrough on the signs, not a hotel and an ephemeral 'area'.

Note the hotel is named after the locale not the other way round. Most maps show Scotch Corner quite clearly and have done since the first OS maps appeared in 1845. As far back as the Roman era it was where the roads to Western Scotland and Eastern Scotland (Carlisle and Corbridge) diverged and remained important into the modern era as the drovers used them to get cattle to the English markets.

As for the appellation Teesside as a Middlesbrough lad I would certainly support a sign that just says 'The Boro' but the reality is that you cannot have a reasonably sized legible sign that says

Middlesbrough
Stockton
Thornaby
Ingelby Barwick
Redcar

[si404]

Incidentally, Thamesport must be the only PD not connected to a primary route or motorway.

Bognor Regis, Minehead and Harrow don't. Bromley is debateable (certainly Orpington, which it replaced, is better).

Of course, Thamesport and Minehead are recent additions to the list of PDs.

The problem is that if you look at most maps (including pretty much all web maps) then places like Scotch Corner, Tay Road Bridge and Teesside are invisible. Yes, A-Z and one or two other paper maps highlight them, but they are sadly of decreasing relevance.

PDs are of as much relevance as ever, just that map makers have made the poor decision to consider them irrelevant for navigation. Why should sign makers account for bad mapping? The list is publicly accessible.

Interestingly the OS road map is pretty terrible at marking PDs. Most of the problems are London, but also some recent-ish changes (and some pre-94 changes!). Just looking at England
Marked as PDs, but not on the list.

• Avonmouth (2009 removal)
• Bishops Stortford
• Blackwall Tunnel (recent removal, or just missed off in the list?)
• Dagenham
• Esher (2009 removal)
• Hatfield (2009 removal)
• March (2009 removal)
• National Exhibition Centre (Birmingham International Airport is the PD, though both are signed pretty much equally)
• Orpington
• Stow-on-the-Wold
• Stroud (2009 removal)
• Swanley (2009 removal)
• Woolwich Ferry (Woolwich now the PD)
• Workington (2009 removal)

Not marked as PDs, but on the list

• Barking
• Bexleyheath
• Birmingham Airport (2011 addition)
• Bognor Regis
• Brent Cross (not marked on map)
• Brixton
• Bromley
• Brownhills
• Central London (not marked)
• Clapham Junction (not marked)
• Colne (2011 addition)
• Crewe (2009 addition)
• Dalston
• Docklands (not marked)
• Ealing
• East Midlands Airport (2011 addition)
• Enfield
• Hammersmith
• Harrow
• Holloway (not marked)
• Ilford
• Kilburn (not marked)
• Lewisham
• London (understandable?)
• Luton Airport (2011 addition)
• Minehead (2011 addition)
• Peckham (not marked)
• Romford
• Rugby
• Stone (removed 2011, readded 2012!)
• Stratford (London)
• Teesside
• Thamesport (not marked, 2011 addition)
• Uxbridge
• Wembley
• West End (not marked)
• Wimbledon
• Wood Green
• Woolwich (Woolwich Ferry is though)

[Stevie D]

As for the appellation Teesside as a Middlesbrough lad I would certainly support a sign that just says 'The Boro' but the reality is that you cannot have a reasonably sized legible sign that says

Middlesbrough
Stockton
Thornaby
Ingelby Barwick
Redcar

You don't need to – from a distance away, just have 'Middlesbrough', and then add Stockton and potentially Redcar when they become relevant as going in a different direction. Thornaby and Ingleby Barwick do not merit primary status at all.

[rileyrob]

It is interstitial (to me at least) that the OP has only listed the Erskine and Tay Bridges as surplus, out of the 4 PD bridges in Scotland. I would argue that the Erskine bridge is a very important PD which is just as relevant, of not more so, as the FRB. The Tay Bridge on the ther hand is really a duplication of Dundee, and o ly needs to be signed from the edge of the city, whilst in Fife, Dundee would suffice.
For the same reason, Kyle is a PD rather than the Skye Bridge, and Inverness instead of the Kessock Bridge.

The Kincardine Bridge is an odd one, as it seems that it is now quieter than the Clackmannanshire Bridge. It is also of less strategic importance for long distance traffic these days, with the FRB and A9 both being a lot busier. Yes sign it from 10 miles or so away, but a PD? Really?

Further north, Newtonmore is really rather pointless these days as a PD, and with the growth of Aviemore, I would argue that the PD should be moved a few miles north - as far as strategic traffic is concerned there is no detriment to the current Situation, and it would have the benefit of being signed from Moray in place of Perth!