Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

[Potholes ate my car]

The Forth Road Bridge is being phased out with the advent of the new Queensferry Crossing. It has been replaced with Perth on some signs.

[Stevie D]

I've always said Stoke-on-Trent isn't necessary. It's not a focus point like most of the others but an administrative area that if you follow signs to you'll probably end up somewhere else.

I'd keep Stoke but scrap Newcastle-under-Lyme, personally.

Stoke makes more sense as a long-distance sign (which is what PDs are all about) ... it is the name of the unitary authority, the conurbation and one of the principal towns within the conurbation, and is also home to the area's main railway station. It is far better known than Newcastle-under-Lyme, and is not going to be confused with another city 180 miles away.

Sure, once you get to the UA itself then you need to be more subtle than just 'Stoke', but from anywhere further afield, you want the same direction for both Stoke and Newcastle, so it makes sense to use the one that more people have heard of.

Would you say Betws-y-coed should be removed? I am personally happy with Betws-y-coed as a PD, just wanted to know what you thought of it.

Having looked it up, it's a lot smaller than I had realised – most maps seem to give it greater importance than its size alone suggests. That said, its place on the edge of Snowdonia and in the heart of a tourist area means it is better known than most Welsh villages of a similar size, and its position at the crossing point of the A5 and A470 gives it a strategic importance for navigation ... so I am quite happy with it as a PD. Otherwise you are going to need to add a lot more places to signposts.

[KeithW]

and if you are heading up the A74(M) intending to drive to Northern Scotland the Erskine Bridge road is where you need to be heading.

You don't have to take the erskine bridge. Indeed I never do; if I were to "take the road" rather than ferry onto the peninsula which I used to live, I'd leave Glasgow via great western road which naturally takes you north of the river. It's easy to get to from any part of Glasgow and it's just off the m8/m74 so that's a doddle as well. My mate who lived on the south side would take the bridge but that follows as it'd not make sense for him to go up (probably through tradeston) to get to great western road. Incidentally great western road runs all the way up to Inverness I think so it's a very long drive!

Well if I had been heading to Inverness I would probably have taken the A9 as the Great Western Road is beautiful but rather slow. As it happened it was I was heading up to Skye and so crossed the Erskine Bridge to pick up the A82 to Fort William and Invergarry. Now I could have gone up the M73, M80 and M9/A9 to Dalwhinnie and then taken the A86 to Spean Bridge but last time I tried that I was stuck behind a huge truck carrying logs for over 30 miles. So in fact short of going through Glasgow I did indeed need to use the Erskine Bridge which IS on the list of Primary Destinations.

There seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding of what a PD is. To quote wikipedia

"Primary destinations are usually cities and large towns, to which, as a result of their size, a high volume of traffic is expected to go. However, in rural areas, smaller towns or villages may be given primary status if located at junctions of significant roads: for example, Llangurig in Wales and Crianlarich in Scotland. As a further example, Scotch Corner in northern England is not even a village—merely a hotel and a few other buildings—yet has the status of a primary destination due to its location at the interchange of the A1 and A66 roads. For similar reasons, certain airports, sea ports, bridges and tunnels have been designated as primary destinations."

They are in fact wrong about Scotch Corner being named after the hotel. It had that name long before the hotel was built having been the point at which you chose to go to Scotland via the western route or eastern route. In the days of the cattle drovers there was another decision point near Greta Bridge where you chose the shorter Summer Road via Barnard Castle, Alston and Brampton to Carlisle or the longer but safer Winter Road via Brough and Penrith. If time (and weather) permits I prefer the summer road.

In the late 1960's when I was a callow and rather reckless motorcyclist the A66 route was rather popular with Truckers as they found the A66 to be much less challenging than the old A6 over Shap Fell. Once the M6 was completed more traffic went that way. In the 1970's and 80's relatively few HGV's took the A66. The rising congestion around Manchester and Brmingham had changed that so in fact more trucks use the A66 again especially since the section over Bowes Moor was dualled.

[Fenlander]

I've often wondered why Market Deeping isn't a PD, because it is a sizeable town on the A15. The combined local population makes it a little smaller than both Stamford and Spalding.

Neither Deeping or Bourne are PD's, meaning the first PD north of Peterborough is in fact Sleaford, a good 30 miles.

I'd suggest Deeping is too close to need signing (and probably Bourne too under that argument), and it's bypassed anyway so not really a destination as such, same with Sleaford except you've got the A17 at the roundabout too. In terms of not so much being a destination but the turning point onto another busy route you could argue that Bourne (A151) or Osbournby (A52) are more worthy of signing.
Market Deeping isn't particularly big unless you add in the rest of the Deepings.

[si404]

Stoke makes more sense as a long-distance sign (which is what PDs are all about) ... it is the name of the unitary authority, the conurbation and one of the principal towns within the conurbation

The conurbation is called "The Potteries", and Stoke-upon-Trent is not that principal (outside of the railway and the council offices). I guess Stoke is where the A52 heads east from the A500, and the A50 meets the D-ring not that far south but, in terms of roads, Hanley is far-and-away the more important of the Stoke-on-Trent towns - it has the A52 and A53 primary routes passing nice and close by, the A50 too, it's the commercial centre, etc.

Newcastle is the hub of where the roads go though - the D ring is effectively (while serving several Stoke towns en-route) a bypass for the town. I guess the A50 has never really gone to Newcastle, but that's the only non-local route that doesn't. I agree that Newcastle is naff for long-distance signage, but the conurbation isn't "Stoke-on-Trent" nor is "Stoke" a good place to sign.

[Osthagen]

Would anyone consider the removal of Mansfield and Chesterfield?

On the M1, they do sort of get in the way of signing more important destinations (i.e Leicester).

You would have some indication of the two when you got near enough though.

[RichardA626]

Why is Minehead a Primary? That's just a place that we Somerset folk go to when we want to ride on a steam train.

Having Butlins there might be a reason.

[Stevie D]

Just reading this thread and I just have to say I disagree with the Brough / Wetherby / Scotch Corner / Corbridge / Tyne Tunnel points.

Okay on some maps, they may not be the best directions but verbally giving directions they're much easier. For example going from Stockton -> Windermere.

In the current way you'd just direct as:

1. Follow signs for Darlington on the A66.
2. Once near Darlington follow signs towards Scotch Corner, you'll join the A1(M) for a bit but at Scotch Corner you'll turn off for the A66 towards Brough.
3. Once at Brough turn off on the A685 towards Kendal.
4. Once at Kendal you'll see local signs for Windermere.

Simple however with some of the suggestions above it's not the same it would be like:

1. Follow signs for Darlington on the A66.
2. Now you have to follow the A66 but it'll be sign posted as the A1(M) South towards Doncaster / Leeds but it's fine.
3. Now you'll join the A1(M) South for a bit even known your heading West until you see the A66 again sign posted as The Lakes / Penrith / Carlisle. Go along here for a bit.
4. Right eventually you'll come to this place called Brough after a long section of dual carriageway and now you have to ignore these Lakes signs saying use the A66 even known your going to the Lakes as it's not the quickest way and head towards Kendal but remember ignore the Lakes signs.
5. Once at Kendal you'll see local signs for Windermere.

From Stockton:

• A66 Darlington, (A1(M))
• A1(M) Leeds, The South, (A66) Penrith
• A66 Penrith, (A685) Kendal
• A685 Kendal
• A591 Windermere

Only need to remember Darlington, Penrith, Kendal and Windermere. What's difficult about that?

[Stevie D]

Would anyone consider the removal of Mansfield and Chesterfield?

No. They are both substantial towns with a significant hinterland, that form a primary route hub with five primary routes radiating out from each of them. There are loads of PDs that are more ripe for removal than these two.

[Stevie D]

Places that I would add to the PD list:
...Dunfermline... ...Kinross...

I'd argue that Perth covers that general region and is a stronger route centre, and thus more advantageous on signage than Dunfermine and Kinross are.

Kinross was one that I'm really not sure about. It's not a particularly significant place but it could be a key navigation point where the A977 and A91 meet the M90. Coming out of Stirling, the A91 is signed to Alloa (non-primary), St Andrews (justifiable, but it is a pretty small town more than 50 miles away, there ought to be something better) and Tay Bridge (nonsense, the only reason for crossing the Tay Bridge is to get to Dundee, and the best route from Stirling to Dundee is via A9 and A90). Perth, likewise, you wouldn't go that way for.

Coming off the M876, you have a choice between "Alloa (sic), Perth" and "Kincardine (sic), Kirkcaldy, Forth Road Bridge". I don't see either of those as being ideal. Again, you've got non-primary destinations included, you've got places that are a long way off (nothing wrong with that per se but it's often useful to have somewhere a little closer as well) and a bridge that you wouldn't want to cross because it's quicker to go a different route. Dunfermline would fill that gap nicely, and as a town with a population of 50k at a primary crossroads, it can easily justify the status.

Interestingly, I've just been having a look at the list of Scottish PDs on Wikipedia, and I'm really puzzled. Many of them are not shown as primary on my A-Z and don't appear to be considered as primary on signage, and quite a few are nowhere near any primary routes. Can anyone verify whether the list on Wikipedia is correct and current for Scotland?
Aberfoyle, Airdrie, Arbroath, Aviemore, Banff, Biggar*, Blairgowrie, Braemar, Dumbarton, Dufftown, Dunfermline, Durness (I mean, seriously?), Falkirk, Grantown-on-Spey*, Hamilton*, Huntly, Inveraray, John o'Groats, Kinross, Lanark, Leith, Livingston*, Lochearnhead, Lochgilphead, Montrose, Musselburgh, Peebles, Pitlochry, Stonehaven and Strathaven.

* These are shown on some signs as primary, but not on others, and where they are shown it is often in conjunction with definitely non-primary destinations, giving little evidence that they are being signed as primary.

Callander, Coldstream and Portree are not shown on my A-Z, so may either be new additions or a mistake on their part, but they do appear to be signed as PDs.

[Stevie D]

Corbridge can easily be replaced with next-door Hexham, which is the PD for the A69 (unlike Corbridge). Follow signs for Hexham, until signs for Jedburgh appear isn't any different than the current Corbridge-Jedburgh arrangement.

Both Corbridge and Hexham are very pleasant places but neither really could be described as a Primary Destination. I doubt many travellers are on the A69 thinking 'Oooh I wish we had gone to Hexham before'.

Hexham is a reasonable-sized town, and the last sizeable town for some distance to the west or north. It is close to where the A68 and A69 cross. It is pretty well known (probably because of its racecourse). It makes sense to use as a primary destination for both east—west and north—south traffic. I don't recall a town making people think "Oooh, I wish I had gone there before" being a criterion for primary status, or else how have we got Immingham, Swindon, Telford, Campbeltown, Middlesbrough and any number of other places on the list?

[rileyrob]

I think one of the main purposes of having the FRB and Kincardine bridge as PDs was that if one or other bridge had to be closed, the signage was ready and waiting for the diversion.
As for that Wikipedia list of PDs, I think we can safely define that as nonsense, and divert attention to the sabre wiki list instead: Primary Destinations.

[vlad]

Stoke makes more sense as a long-distance sign (which is what PDs are all about) ... it is the name of the unitary authority, the conurbation and one of the principal towns within the conurbation, and is also home to the area's main railway station. It is far better known than Newcastle-under-Lyme, and is not going to be confused with another city 180 miles away.

If you're saying you can't sign Newcastle as there's another place of the same name a few hours' drive away then surely that's just dumbing down? It's not as though both places are shown on the same sign. If you turn off the M6 at J15 looking for the Metrocentre then you've only got yourself to blame.

It's true that Stoke is the name of the Unitary Authority - but Unitary Authorities aren't primary destinations (ever seen a sign to Cheshire West & Chester?). It's not the name of the conurbation and indeed only makes up part of it. The fact it's the name of the main railway station is irrelevant if you're travelling by road.

[si404]

Aberfoyle, Airdrie, Arbroath, Aviemore, Banff, Biggar*, Blairgowrie, Braemar, Dumbarton, Dufftown, Dunfermline, Durness (I mean, seriously?), Falkirk, Grantown-on-Spey*, Hamilton*, Huntly, Inveraray, John o'Groats, Kinross, Lanark, Leith, Livingston*, Lochearnhead, Lochgilphead, Montrose, Musselburgh, Peebles, Pitlochry, Stonehaven and Strathaven.

Going by LTN 1/94 (which is the most recent official list we have for Scotland, despite being 23 years old and there having been an axe taken to the Primary Route Network north of the border since then) then:
Arbroath, Braemar, Montrose and Peebles are PDs in 1994, but as the A72, A92, A93 and A703 now carry white signs, these places will have been removed from the list.

Aberfoyle, Airdrie, Aviemore, Banff, Biggar, Blairgowrie, Dumbarton, Dufftown, Dunfermline, Durness, Falkirk, Grantown on Spey, Hamilton, Huntly, Inveraray, John o Groats, Kinross, Lanark, Leith, Livingston, Lochearnhead, Lochgilphead, Musselburgh, Pitlochry, Stonehaven and Strathaven are not, nor never have been, PDs (OK, perhaps Stonehaven was at some point, and we've not yet found out).

[si404]

It's true that Stoke is the name of the Unitary Authority - but Unitary Authorities aren't primary destinations (ever seen a sign to Cheshire West & Chester?).

Bromley and Harrow say "hi". They are only PDs due to the same-name London Borough.

[Chris Bertram]

It's true that Stoke is the name of the Unitary Authority - but Unitary Authorities aren't primary destinations (ever seen a sign to Cheshire West & Chester?).

Teesside and Torbay used to be, when they were County Boroughs. Torbay has now been replced by Torquay (which I think it replaced itself in the first place). Teesside remains as a PD, but Middlesbrough and Stockton take over as you get closer.

[Osthagen]

Although I'm all for the removal of Corbridge as a PD, I'm not 100 percent sure as to what should be signed in its stead…

For example, what do we put on the junction sign from the A1(M)? Hexham? Jedburgh? Consett (already signed at J61)?

[Stevie D]

Although I'm all for the removal of Corbridge as a PD, I'm not 100 percent sure as to what should be signed in its stead…

For example, what do we put on the junction sign from the A1(M)? Hexham? Jedburgh? Consett (already signed at J61)?

Northbound, you would have Hexham, Consett and Bishop Auckland. No need to mention Jedburgh until you're past Hexham. From the south, the A68 is a better route to Consett than carrying on to J61 so it should be signed at both junctions.

[brombeer]

It's true that Stoke is the name of the Unitary Authority - but Unitary Authorities aren't primary destinations (ever seen a sign to Cheshire West & Chester?).

Bromley and Harrow say "hi". They are only PDs due to the same-name London Borough.

Wasn't the system that each London borough would have one PD? Then the primary destination not only refers to the specific area signposted (which may be small), but to the broader area. Which makes kind of sense, though it touches on a bigger concern that I have. Namely that the catalogue of primary destinations will always contain very important towns/areas/waypoints and points of a much lower significance. The signposting should reflect this, most notably in the sense that a smaller or less recognizable PD should in principle not be signposted alone. At least not on through routes that move on after the minor PD in question. There you'd expect more major towns ahead, and not even a regional destination will really suffice there. Case in point: Luton / The NORTH on the M1, which isn't telling anyone where this road is really going.

As far as this is concerned, British signposting too often goes onto some sort of autopilot, where the first one or two PDs are being signposted, without anyone asking whether that is really useful for the road on which you find yourself. It's as if there is an assumption that all PDs are equally important and helpful for the motorist, irrespective of the size of the PD and the type of road that you're on. If the town is a PD, it will help the motorist in finding his way. That assumption would be wrong. Rather than discussing what should be sliced off the bottom of the PD list, I'd want to focus on ensuring that these towns are appropriately accompanied when they are signposted on major roads. A reinstatement of the system of superprimary destinations would be a starter ...

[James]

Would anyone consider the removal of Mansfield and Chesterfield?

No. They are both substantial towns with a significant hinterland, that form a primary route hub with five primary routes radiating out from each of them. There are loads of PDs that are more ripe for removal than these two.

Oddly signed quite promiently from the southbound M1 but non-existant on the northbound side for some reason!