Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

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brombeer
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by brombeer »

jabbaboy wrote:Surely the first step is much easier. You have to remember the A1(M) from Darlington to Scotch Corner is a North West, South and West route not just the South and having a waypoint to split it is much easier. Otherwise realistically you'd have to have something like:

A1(M)
THE SOUTH
Leeds
Doncaster

(A66)
THE NORTH WEST
THE WEST
Kendal
Penrith
Carlisle

Which is just too much.
Suppose that you could slice off some from that list. But in the end: whether you are arriving from Newcastle or from Leeds, there is no stand-out town on the A66 worth signposting very prominently. Coming from the South, even Glasgow could be a candidate. And while you could figure out something for RCSs, you'd inevitably struggle finding the right destinations for other signs as you get closer to Scotch Corner. Per my previous post, the bigger issue is that Scotch Corner appears more or less standalone, e.g. Scotch Corner / The NORTH at J51 of the A1(M), which in my opinion would better have read Scotch Corner / Newcastle / The NORTH. On the A66 heading East towards Scotch Corner, on the other hand, I'd rather use A1(M) as the most important destination and leave out Scotch Corner.

Signposting Scotch Corner of course presumes that this is broadly known as a waypoint by motorists unfamiliar in the region. Scotch Corner ticks this box, I would say, but this translates into a broader thought as to when signposting important waypoints, as opposed to towns, makes sense. In my view, this is the case in two situations:
(i) waypoints where, after crossing it, traffic will split into a lot of directions. Example: many of the bridges and tunnels in New York; and
(ii) waypoints where traffic will continue in only one or two directions, but where you'd struggle finding a well-known town in the hinterland to describe the route. Example: mountain passes in the Alps.

In each case, the names of the waypoints should be broadly known among through motorists. On the latter point, I see Scotch Corner qualifying. But Scottish bridges and the Tyne Tunnel should in my view fall through, except when you're really close to that bridge - since that's when the waypoint comes to qualify under (i). But in that phase, you'd add the waypoint as a kind of local destination next to the first primary destination ahead. Not sure whether the UK has any points that would qualify under (i) from further out.
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Osthagen
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Osthagen »

James wrote:
Stevie D wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:Would anyone consider the removal of Mansfield and Chesterfield?
No. They are both substantial towns with a significant hinterland, that form a primary route hub with five primary routes radiating out from each of them. There are loads of PDs that are more ripe for removal than these two.
Oddly signed quite promiently from the southbound M1 but non-existant on the northbound side for some reason!
I've noticed that too. Very odd indeed. :roll:

I'd rather sign Leicester, personally. Not enough signage from Sheffield & North Derbyshire.
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brombeer
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by brombeer »

The five primary roads radiating out of them should not really be a factor when you're on the M1, since these mostly run parallel to the M1 or the M1 intersects directly with them. The hinterland is probably more of an argument, but given the relative distances between these towns and nearby PDs, that hinterland is not huge. However, I'm not trying to make the case here to strike out these towns as PDs, but if that status knocks on to M1 Southbound signage on which Derby is the southernmost PD signposted on the RCSs (at 41 miles), I'd say that the selection of towns to be signposted is not really helping the motorist. And no The SOUTH can save that day. Not sure whether replacing on the current destinations with Leicester would completely solve the issue, but it would be a start. In the end, and at the risk of repeating myself, you need a superprimary destination on the signs on a route like the M1.
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Osthagen
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Osthagen »

brombeer wrote:Suppose that you could slice off some from that list. But in the end: whether you are arriving from Newcastle or from Leeds, there is no stand-out town on the A66 worth signposting very prominently. Coming from the South, even Glasgow could be a candidate. And while you could figure out something for RCSs, you'd inevitably struggle finding the right destinations for other signs as you get closer to Scotch Corner. Per my previous post, the bigger issue is that Scotch Corner appears more or less standalone, e.g. Scotch Corner / The NORTH at J51 of the A1(M), which in my opinion would better have read Scotch Corner / Newcastle / The NORTH. On the A66 heading East towards Scotch Corner, on the other hand, I'd rather use A1(M) as the most important destination and leave out Scotch Corner.
My suggestion (for RCSs) was to sign the nearest local (non-primary) destination from a list, in addition to three primary ones.

For the A66 Penrith-SC, these would be:

M6
Appleby
Brough
Bowes
Scotch Corner/A1(M)

So once you've passed the M6, you'll start seeing signs for Appleby. Once past Appleby, you'll see signs for Brough. And so on and so forth.

The Primary Destinations to use would be Darlington (representing the A1 North), Leeds (for A1 South) and Barnard Castle (a sizeable town nearby the A66).
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Osthagen
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Osthagen »

The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by trickstat »

McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
I think this is down to Felixstowe being not just a port, but the UK's number 1 container port. Therefore, huge numbers of lorries go there to drop off and pick up loads. I suspect that a lot more vehicles heading east on the A14 through Northamptonshire, for example, are going to Felixstowe than Ipswich.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Chris Bertram »

McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
Harwich also gets a mention from quite a way out.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by KeithW »

McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
Nobody cares where the town of Felixstowe is. The Port of Felixstowe on the other hand is the reason the A14 in its modern form exists. The decision was taken in the 1990's that a new road was needed to move container traffic between the no 1 container port in the UK and the West Midlands. This was the basis for building the A1 M1 link road and renumbering and upgrading the existing roads. If ever there was a Primary Destination the port at Felxistowe is it. In 2011 the port handled over 3.7 million shipping containers all of which have to travel to and from Felixstowe by road or rail.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Chris Bertram »

And the same applies to many other ports, whether freight or ferry. I mentioned Harwich, but Holyhead, Fishguard, Pembroke, Stranraer and others would not warrant primary destination status if it weren't for the boats (and I know that Stranraer has been superseded by Cairnryan now). OTOH, Southampton would be one regardless, as would Portsmouth.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Osthagen »

trickstat wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
I think this is down to Felixstowe being not just a port, but the UK's number 1 container port. Therefore, huge numbers of lorries go there to drop off and pick up loads. I suspect that a lot more vehicles heading east on the A14 through Northamptonshire, for example, are going to Felixstowe than Ipswich.
I am not that bothered about the signage of Felixstowe from the Midlands. In fact, I'm all for a greater ammount of long distance signage. I just think the signage for Ipswich is inadequate.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by A320Driver »

Slightly off-topic, but just having a nosey on Google Earth at Felixstowe, I noticed that the A154 is located at the end of the A14.
I know we don't have 'subzones' per se, but isn't this road massively out of its natural habitat?
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by trickstat »

McNessA720 wrote:
trickstat wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
I think this is down to Felixstowe being not just a port, but the UK's number 1 container port. Therefore, huge numbers of lorries go there to drop off and pick up loads. I suspect that a lot more vehicles heading east on the A14 through Northamptonshire, for example, are going to Felixstowe than Ipswich.
I am not that bothered about the signage of Felixstowe from the Midlands. In fact, I'm all for a greater ammount of long distance signage. I just think the signage for Ipswich is inadequate.
I assume travelling from the A1 to Cambridge, Ipswich loses out to Felixstowe, Cambridge, Stansted Airport and London. Living where I do, I've only been on the A14 between Huntingdon and the M11 about 3 times, so I'm no expert.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by si404 »

Chris Bertram wrote:Harwich also gets a mention from quite a way out.
Harwich also has its historical status as a Super Primary Destination that helps with this: on top of being a 'mere' port we're looking at one set aside as important.
Chris Bertram wrote:And the same applies to many other ports, whether freight or ferry. I mentioned Harwich, but Holyhead, Fishguard, Pembroke, Stranraer and others would not warrant primary destination status if it weren't for the boats (and I know that Stranraer has been superseded by Cairnryan now). OTOH, Southampton would be one regardless, as would Portsmouth.
I think Fishguard would be a PD as it would still be at a node on the Welsh Trunk Network (the SW corner of the country). Pembroke wouldn't though. Stranraer might be the same, though I'm less sure as to whether the A75 west of Dumfries and the A77 south of Ayr would actually be trunk. Holyhead probably wouldn't be fully connected to Anglesey, nor Anglesey to the mainland, if it wasn't the main Dublin port.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by lefthandedspanner »

McNessA720 wrote:
trickstat wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:The A14 is weird.

Felixtowe (pop. 24,000) is signed eastbound right from the western terminus of the route. Yet Ipswich (pop. 133,000) receives no signage (at the very least, none of which I am aware) until around Cambridge :roll: . Never quite got that.

I am aware, however, of Felixtowe's status as a major port.
I think this is down to Felixstowe being not just a port, but the UK's number 1 container port. Therefore, huge numbers of lorries go there to drop off and pick up loads. I suspect that a lot more vehicles heading east on the A14 through Northamptonshire, for example, are going to Felixstowe than Ipswich.
I am not that bothered about the signage of Felixstowe from the Midlands. In fact, I'm all for a greater ammount of long distance signage. I just think the signage for Ipswich is inadequate.
If memory serves, Ipswich didn't used to be signposted at all on the first 50 miles of the A12 away from London, and only appeared on signs when you were nearly past Colchester.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by crb11 »

trickstat wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:
trickstat wrote:
I think this is down to Felixstowe being not just a port, but the UK's number 1 container port. Therefore, huge numbers of lorries go there to drop off and pick up loads. I suspect that a lot more vehicles heading east on the A14 through Northamptonshire, for example, are going to Felixstowe than Ipswich.
I am not that bothered about the signage of Felixstowe from the Midlands. In fact, I'm all for a greater ammount of long distance signage. I just think the signage for Ipswich is inadequate.
I assume travelling from the A1 to Cambridge, Ipswich loses out to Felixstowe, Cambridge, Stansted Airport and London. Living where I do, I've only been on the A14 between Huntingdon and the M11 about 3 times, so I'm no expert.
Pretty close - the A14 south at Huntingdon is signed south for Cambridge, Felixstowe, Harwich and Stansted (but not London). At the Girton split the signage isn't consistent but generally you get Cambridge, Newmarket, Felixstowe, Harwich and Ely left and London M11 right (I think there is a "for Stansted follow London sign").

In general the A14 eastbound has forward RCSes for Felixstowe, Harwich and the next PD only (with some exceptions - Cambridge appears as well as Huntingdon from about the Cambridgeshire border). Ipswich isn't signed at all west of Bury St Edmunds as far as I'm aware.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Osthagen »

Would places like Ripon and York be suitable for RCS on the A1?
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Stevie D »

McNessA720 wrote:Would places like Ripon and York be suitable for RCS on the A1?
York, definitely. Ripon, I'm not so sure about – it isn't a big place, and particularly northbound the access from the A1(M) is poor.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Berk »

Stevie D wrote:
McNessA720 wrote:Would places like Ripon and York be suitable for RCS on the A1?
York, definitely. Ripon, I'm not so sure about – it isn't a big place, and particularly northbound the access from the A1(M) is poor.
What's wrong with J50?? And the A61??

And if the access is poor, it's probably down to having J49 as limited access.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

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Berk wrote:
Stevie D wrote:York, definitely. Ripon, I'm not so sure about – it isn't a big place, and particularly northbound the access from the A1(M) is poor.
What's wrong with J50?? And the A61??

And if the access is poor, it's probably down to having J49 as limited access.
Northbound, Ripon is signed off at J48 and then via A168 and B6265. J49 is a red herring, even if there was full access it wouldn't be of use for traffic coming from the south for Ripon, not without a major upgrade of Sharow Lane.
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Re: Bad/Unnecessary Primary Destinations.

Post by Berk »

Stevie D wrote:
Berk wrote:
Stevie D wrote:York, definitely. Ripon, I'm not so sure about – it isn't a big place, and particularly northbound the access from the A1(M) is poor.
What's wrong with J50?? And the A61??

And if the access is poor, it's probably down to having J49 as limited access.
Northbound, Ripon is signed off at J48 and then via A168 and B6265. J49 is a red herring, even if there was full access it wouldn't be of use for traffic coming from the south for Ripon, not without a major upgrade of Sharow Lane.
It depends what you mean by major. I think it should be upgraded to a reasonable standard, so it can be given B-road status. It doesn't seem reasonable to make people travel up to 10 miles on the LAR before the junction they require turns up.
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