'Lost' types of signage

[Berk]

There are a few sign types that I can think of that we no longer see on the roads. Pre-Worboys, obviously, plus the Anderson motorway signs. Then you have the Oxfordshire signs, which caused quite a stir.

But are there any others?? I'm thinking of Britain and Ireland, mainly national types of signage, or sub-national if it was well-recognised in a particular county, or area.

Out of curiosity, when were the Anderson signs retired??

[Bryn666]

Anderson signs were phased out in 1964.

[Berk]

That's a little surprising. I believe many of them lasted into the 70s?? Did they not spread very far??

[FosseWay]

The "series of bends" sign was removed from TSRGD a while back, as were blue borders on white direction signs to denote a local destination. There are still plenty of both around, of course, especially compared to pre-Warboys signs, but they are becoming fewer.

[nowster]

There's a wiki page here showing retired signs.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/inde ... ffic_Signs

[c2R]

There's a wiki page here showing retired signs.

http://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/inde ... ffic_Signs

Z bends is the one that makes me sad from that list, as it is much better than putting some stupid yellow backing on an N bend sign. I also think that 1:10 makes much more sense than x%

But the sort of sign that should definitely be preserved are the Dorset Fingerposts, with grid reference and name dial: Category:Dorset_Traditional_Fingerpost_Junctions

[Nwallace]

A percentage is still a ratio, n in 100

Where %ages as implemented win is they say how many up for how many along, so the changeable number gets bigger as it gets steeper.

E.g. 1 in 10 is 10% or 10 in 100
But the steeper 1 in 5 is 20% or 20 in 100
Which just makes sense (and only presenting 1 number makes things simpler too)


Sent from my HTC One M8s using Tapatalk

[FosseWay]

Both percentages and ratios make logical sense, but the advantage of ratios is that you know what the reference point is, because you are given both halves of the ratio. Providing you know that 100% is 45 degrees (1 in 1), percentages are equally obvious and have the advantage that the number increases with increasing steepness. But I think it is far from intuitively obvious that 100% is 45 degrees, and not vertical or something else. 45 degrees is only halfway between horizontal and vertical - why is it therefore 100% of anything?

If you see a sign saying "20%", asking the question "20% of what?" is a valid response, and the answer to that question is not evident purely from the information in front of you as a road user at that point.

[nowster]

Just to confuse things, roads use tangent ratios (height gained over distance horizontally) whereas the railways use sine ratios (height gained over distance travelled).

So a road "1:1" ratio is 45° to the horizontal whereas a rail "1:1" ratio is vertical.

[FosseWay]

Just to confuse things, roads use tangent ratios (height gained over distance horizontally) whereas the railways use sine ratios (height gained over distance travelled).

So a road "1:1" ratio is 45° to the horizontal whereas a rail "1:1" ratio is vertical.

I'm struggling to get my head round that. How can 1:1 by any measure be vertical? You can define 100% as 90 degrees (vertical) rather than 45, sure, but not 1:1. If the railways measure distance travelled rather than horizontal distance, then a 45 degree slope (highly likely on a railway! ) would involve travelling root-2 units for every 1 unit of height gained (1:1.41-ish) rather than the road version, which is 1:1. But in either case vertical is 1:0.

[ellandback]

Perhaps it depends what you grew up with. I still subconsciously convert %s into ratios to get a feel for how steep it is (just as I still think of "road narrows on near/offside" rather than "left/right"). And no, I'm not THAT old - as a good budding Sabrisiti I had an early interest in signs.

As I've said before I also very much lament the demise of the Z bend sign. I simply can't understand that decision. Even after all this time I still can't get my head round the fact that the N bend sign might ever mean anything other than two bends in opposite directions.

[nowster]

If distance travelled is exactly equal to height gained, you're going straight up.

Yes, a 45° incline on the railway would be 1:√2 or 71%. 1:2 or 50% would be 30° (sin(30°)=0.5)

A more typical incline on the railways would be 1:100, which is only a hair over 1:100 in road terms. In all typical occurrences (shallower than about 1:5) there's not a significant difference between the two methods.

[FosseWay]

If distance travelled is exactly equal to height gained, you're going straight up.

Yes, a 45° incline on the railway would be 1:√2 or 71%. 1:2 or 50% would be 30° (sin(30°)=0.5)

A more typical incline on the railways would be 1:100, which is only a hair over 1:100 in road terms. In all typical occurrences (shallower than about 1:5) there's not a significant difference between the two methods.

Yes, you're quite right - I am clearly half asleep.

The shallower the gradient, the less practical difference there is between the two.

[James]

Perhaps it depends what you grew up with. I still subconsciously convert %s into ratios to get a feel for how steep it is (just as I still think of "road narrows on near/offside" rather than "left/right"). And no, I'm not THAT old - as a good budding Sabrisiti I had an early interest in signs.

Near/offside are terms I find pretty non-obvious. Telling people to be in the left/right lanes is much clearer.

Not that stops the HA using both terms!

[ellandback]

Perhaps it depends what you grew up with. I still subconsciously convert %s into ratios to get a feel for how steep it is (just as I still think of "road narrows on near/offside" rather than "left/right"). And no, I'm not THAT old - as a good budding Sabrisiti I had an early interest in signs.

Near/offside are terms I find pretty non-obvious. Telling people to be in the left/right lanes is much clearer.

I don't disagree, but that was what I originally learned the signs meant (from 1970s vintage Highway Codes and AA Members' Handbooks), and what still appears in my head when I see them on the road.

[c2R]

Both percentages and ratios make logical sense, but the advantage of ratios is that you know what the reference point is, because you are given both halves of the ratio. Providing you know that 100% is 45 degrees (1 in 1), percentages are equally obvious and have the advantage that the number increases with increasing steepness. But I think it is far from intuitively obvious that 100% is 45 degrees, and not vertical or something else. 45 degrees is only halfway between horizontal and vertical - why is it therefore 100% of anything?

If you see a sign saying "20%", asking the question "20% of what?" is a valid response, and the answer to that question is not evident purely from the information in front of you as a road user at that point.

That's really my point - 100% being 45 degrees really isn't self evident, whereas 1:1 is obvious that you go up one km for every km travelled.

[FosseWay]

That's really my point - 100% being 45 degrees really isn't self evident, whereas 1:1 is obvious that you go up one km for every km travelled.

Except you don't - that was the point of Nowster's post that I was rather slow to grasp. The railways measure distance travelled, so you measure along the hypotenuse formed between the horizontal and vertical axes. If 1:1 = 45 degrees, as on the roads, you are going up 1 km for every horizontal km you travel. In most contexts the difference is of course minimal, but if you are actually on a 45 degree slope, your calculations will be out by c. 41%.

[RichardA626]

I never knew the ratio for gradients were different for railways & roads until I read this.

[c2R]

That's really my point - 100% being 45 degrees really isn't self evident, whereas 1:1 is obvious that you go up one km for every km travelled.

Except you don't - that was the point of Nowster's post that I was rather slow to grasp. The railways measure distance travelled, so you measure along the hypotenuse formed between the horizontal and vertical axes. If 1:1 = 45 degrees, as on the roads, you are going up 1 km for every horizontal km you travel. In most contexts the difference is of course minimal, but if you are actually on a 45 degree slope, your calculations will be out by c. 41%.

Sorry, that's what I meant, although I didn't express it very well admittedly!

[Fenlander]

A lot of it comes down to absolute Vs relative, for example take a standard 2 lane dual carriageway with a roundabout on it, 2 lanes on then 2 lanes round roundabout then 2 lanes off. Which is the inside lane on the DC, is it still the inside lane on the roundabout?
Offside is the opposite side to nearside but what is that side near to? without knowing that the rest doesn't make sense.
Left hand lane is relative to driving, take the left hand lane onto the roundabout, the left hand lane on the roundabout and exit into the left hand lane is an instruction that most drivers would understand and follow easily enough but take the inside lane up to the roundabout then the outside lane round it and then the inside lane off it is clumsy at the very least, never mind confusing.