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tompatt wrote:The other fallacy with this is that, nobody ITK would ever the use the A303 to go from South West to South East anyway. The A303 is a terrible road, long stretches of S2 between Honiton and Amesbury, agricultural traffic and delays around Stonehenge as everyone slows down.
So where would they go then?
A31/A35 is a much worse route than the A303, and M4/M5 is a ridiculously long way around. On the A303, the single carriageway sections are just about bearable, because most of them are not that long. On the A35, you can be stuck behind somebody slow for 40 miles if you're unlucky.
tompatt wrote:The other fallacy with this is that, nobody ITK would ever the use the A303 to go from South West to South East anyway. The A303 is a terrible road, long stretches of S2 between Honiton and Amesbury, agricultural traffic and delays around Stonehenge as everyone slows down.
So where would they go then?
A31/A35 is a much worse route than the A303, and M4/M5 is a ridiculously long way around. On the A303, the single carriageway sections are just about bearable, because most of them are not that long. On the A35, you can be stuck behind somebody slow for 40 miles if you're unlucky.
The A303 between Honiton and Watts End at the end of the Ilminster bypass section is 20 miles of Single carriageway, the Blackdown Hills section is twisty with a 50mph speed limit, not to mention the many tractors that use the road!
The only reason I've ever used it is for variation, the M4 between Bristol and London isn't the most engaging, if I want to get to London efficiently the M5/M4 is the only way, its actually only an extra 20 or so miles from A30/303 M3 . Its also the route suggested by the AA and RAC as it happens.
tompatt wrote:The other fallacy with this is that, nobody ITK would ever the use the A303 to go from South West to South East anyway. The A303 is a terrible road, long stretches of S2 between Honiton and Amesbury, agricultural traffic and delays around Stonehenge as everyone slows down.
I know a couple of people that use the A303 simply because it's a far more varied and interesting drive, compared to the M4 which east of Bristol is the dullest motorway in the country. That said, in the summer months the motorways wins every time with their slightly better reliability.
Also, if nobody used the A303 for long distance journeys, the road would be a hell of a lot quieter and probably not need upgrading at all! So there must be quite some demand there.
No matter how much HE may play with the designations and signing, nowadays with so many following SatNavs, when they get westbound to Ilminster it is going to say the way to Exeter and beyond is by Honiton and the A303/A30. It is not going to plan them all the way round via Taunton, with its significant stretches of heading due north (north-east for a bit on the Hatch Beauchamp bypass).
This route is actually shared by the signposted route from Weymouth to Bristol, which sends you round via Yeovil, Ilminster, and Taunton again. Nobody in Weymouth goes that way, they all know it's just the A37 all the way.
It's also quite common for those in Taunton to actually drive to London via the A303, going down to Ilminster, rather than all the way up to Almondsbury and the delays around Bristol.
When my brother was living / working in the Exeter area, everyone he knew went via the A303 if travelling towards London. He did go back and forth himself a few times one winter, and found the A303 to generally be a lot quicker than the one time he went via the motorway - he was heading to the Paddington area.
Conversely, from where we grew up in Burnham on Sea, the A303 was almost useless. We reached Yeovil (and Dorset) either across the levels or over Poldens (A39) to Street, then the B3151, and Salisbury was east to Frome and the A36. The only useful bit really was Podimore to Wincanton.
True, we never needed to go to Andover or anywhere like that, and more recently I have used the A303 to reach a friend in Petersfield.
However, had the A358 / Ilminster Bypass been a fully grade separated Dual Carriageway 30 years ago, I suspect it would have been used much more. The extra 10 miles would have been balanced out by the higher average speed (except on Summer Saturdays!).
Rob. My mission is to travel every road and visit every town, village and hamlet in the British Isles.
I don't like thinking about how badly I am doing.
A big proportion of HGV traffic already goes via the A358 rather than A303 at Southfields, and then turns on to M5 south. There are big queues full of HGVs through Henlade daily. The traffic count figures back this up
Herned wrote:A big proportion of HGV traffic already goes via the A358 rather than A303 at Southfields, and then turns on to M5 south. There are big queues full of HGVs through Henlade daily. The traffic count figures back this up
Interesting, can you provide a link for the highlighted bit please?
Last edited by RichardA35 on Mon Aug 14, 2017 17:37, edited 1 time in total.
Herned wrote:A big proportion of HGV traffic already goes via the A358 rather than A303 at Southfields, and then turns on to M5 south. There are big queues full of HGVs through Henlade daily. The traffic count figures back this up
Interesting, can you provide a link please?
SABRE Maps. If you click on Traffic Counts, you can see the figures and compare them.
Herned wrote:A big proportion of HGV traffic already goes via the A358 rather than A303 at Southfields, and then turns on to M5 south. There are big queues full of HGVs through Henlade daily. The traffic count figures back this up
Interesting, can you provide a link please?
SABRE Maps. If you click on Traffic Counts, you can see the figures and compare them.
I can find my way around traffic figures OK thanks. It's the bit about turning onto the M5 south I'm interested in.
"No one from the South East realistically uses the A303 to get to the South West." I've heard some statements on SABRE that I might challenge but this may take the biscuit. Perhaps if you are classing the South East as Essex, North London, former Middlesex and Hertfordshire only, then yes that may be generally true. But from Kent, Sussex, South East and South West London, Surrey and Hampshire, you might get just a few who go via that way. The last 10 times I have been on the M5 at Junction 31 the VMS has said "M5 long delays between junctions...." or similar. It was a 25 mile queue the last time. Why would you want to sit in that!
The first 20 times I drove the A303 it was along its entire length to get to and from the South East. It is only being forced to travel during the school holidays that has changed matters, so that admittedly, I have bailed on the road myself in recent years. But what those years now also tell me is: There is now main road route from the South West to the South East during summer weekends that can be navigated without lengthy delays unless travelling very early or late.
multiraider2 wrote:"No one from the South East realistically uses the A303 to get to the South West." I've heard some statements on SABRE that I might challenge but this may take the biscuit. Perhaps if you are classing the South East as Essex, North London, former Middlesex and Hertfordshire only, then yes that may be generally true. But from Kent, Sussex, South East and South West London, Surrey and Hampshire, you might get just a few who go via that way
Indeed, and from the other end the A303 is indisputably quickest from much of Wiltshire, Somerset, and Dorset.
crowntown100 wrote:
SABRE Maps. If you click on Traffic Counts, you can see the figures and compare them.
I can find my way around traffic figures OK thanks. It's the bit about turning onto the M5 south I'm interested in.
Sorry Richard, I didn't mean to upset you. I mis-read your question.
No problem - I also could have been more specific. It's what comes of trying to type on a phone in a park while trying to keep an eye on three children.
Undoubtedly there is a lot of HGV traffic at J25 arriving on the A358, my thoughts are that most of it has come from Poole, Weymouth and is heading up the M5 towards Bristol rather than turning south. Having travelled it many times, there is nothing inherent in the A303 west of Ilminster to deter a lorry driver if they have come along the A303 and are heading for Exeter or further west, so why turn up the A358?
Much of the HGV traffic on the A358 is headed for Taunton itself, or if they are turning onto the M5 South, thence the A361 towards Barnstaple. There's also the Yeovil to Avonmouth/North etc traffic which turns the other way on the M5. A lot of milk tanker traffic from dairy farms in South Somerset goes up this way to the big Robert Wiseman milk concentration plant at Bridgwater.
WHBM wrote:Much of the HGV traffic on the A358 is headed for Taunton itself, or if they are turning onto the M5 South, thence the A361 towards Barnstaple. There's also the Yeovil to Avonmouth/North etc traffic which turns the other way on the M5. A lot of milk tanker traffic from dairy farms in South Somerset goes up this way to the big Robert Wiseman milk concentration plant at Bridgwater.
Indeed my question arises from using the A358 Northbound into the junction regularly in the morning peak over a 3 year period, and that personally I experienced little HGV traffic turning onto the M5 south.
tompatt wrote:The other fallacy with this is that, nobody ITK would ever the use the A303 to go from South West to South East anyway. The A303 is a terrible road, long stretches of S2 between Honiton and Amesbury, agricultural traffic and delays around Stonehenge as everyone slows down.
So where would they go then?
A31/A35 is a much worse route than the A303, and M4/M5 is a ridiculously long way around. On the A303, the single carriageway sections are just about bearable, because most of them are not that long. On the A35, you can be stuck behind somebody slow for 40 miles if you're unlucky.
I would say most of the A35 between Dorchester and Honiton is better than the Blackdown Hills section of the A303. Mostly NSL, 2 sections of Dual and modern bypasses around previously bad sections. On the whole the alignmens are pretty good for an older S2 road.
RichardA35 wrote:I can find my way around traffic figures OK thanks. It's the bit about turning onto the M5 south I'm interested in.
Sorry Richard, I didn't mean to upset you. I mis-read your question.
No problem - I also could have been more specific. It's what comes of trying to type on a phone in a park while trying to keep an eye on three children.
Undoubtedly there is a lot of HGV traffic at J25 arriving on the A358, my thoughts are that most of it has come from Poole, Weymouth and is heading up the M5 towards Bristol rather than turning south. Having travelled it many times, there is nothing inherent in the A303 west of Ilminster to deter a lorry driver if they have come along the A303 and are heading for Exeter or further west, so why turn up the A358?
So why is it that the government don't seem to believe it, as that's plainly their/HE's motivation for backing the scheme??
They must believe that the disbenefits of a 9-mile northerly diversion are outweighed by the faster journey times once you hit the motorway. I am not convinced by this - any diversion that takes you on a longer route is counter-productive - unless the original route is inherently unreliable, which I don't believe the Blackdown stretch is. It is not unlike other similar A-roads (admittedly no longer trunk, in many cases).
RichardA35 wrote:Interesting, can you provide a link for the highlighted bit please?
Bit of a mea culpa... The turning right at Southfields is from the traffic counts. For J25 I can't find the turning figures, I have just looked through a number of the reports on the Somerset county council site about the improvements but have lost the will to carry on. I have seen a plan showing them including the split of cars and HGVs somewhere
RichardA35 wrote:Interesting, can you provide a link for the highlighted bit please?
Bit of a mea culpa... The turning right at Southfields is from the traffic counts. For J25 I can't find the turning figures, I have just looked through a number of the reports on the Somerset county council site about the improvements but have lost the will to carry on. I have seen a plan showing them including the split of cars and HGVs somewhere
I have given the turning figures a few posts above (minus car/HGV split).
