M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L » Fri Dec 04, 2020 21:46

Other than the hole in the concrete barrier just north of j14, where the contraflow used to cross over, there isn't much north of j14 that looks like it needs doing.

Maybe this stretch will be part of the big annual Christmas roadworks removal?
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L » Tue Dec 15, 2020 19:17

Electronic signs around this afternoon warning of overnight lane closures between 14 and 15 for resurfacing.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bendo » Wed Dec 16, 2020 09:09

This one feels like it has flown in comparison to the stretch to the north that felt like it took 10 years.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L » Wed Dec 16, 2020 09:40

Estimated completion is April 2022 if I recall correctly; 4 years construction. I can see 14-15 being open reasonably soon but with metal '60' signs until the electronics arrive. 13-14 seems much further behind.

I think 16-19 was around 3 years, but I stand to be corrected. It was a longer stretch of road though which made it drag.

Edit

It seems from this thread that the works started sometime in the first half of 2016, and from this that it opened March 2019.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by brummie_rob » Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:11

Completion on the whole project now for this is September 2021. With the contraflow now removed the bulk of the work is finished even on J13-J14. I wonder if the resurfacing involves the middle two lanes which are becoming very rutted; though they seemed to have done the road markings as if they aren't bothering to resurface that.

Also what helped with the speed of this other than the contraflow is that for a good 6 months at the start, there were only small sections of restrictions where the overbridges were that needed extra safety protection so it was never continuous works at the start.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Duple » Sat Dec 19, 2020 13:49

brummie_rob wrote:
Mon Nov 02, 2020 16:50
Latest newsletter today says will now be finished by Summer 21:
Early completion of the project is down to
several factors, including the use of contraflow
allowing for a larger working area in the verge
to complete work quicker and lessons learnt
during the primary phase of the project, which
have driven efficiencies across work areas.
Fewer cars on the road over spring and summer
2020 has also given teams the opportunity
to start night shifts earlier in the evening to
complete work more effectively.
Good news that the contraflow system has been a success, hopefully see it on all future projects. And this positive spin on the 60mph speed too:
We’re running at 60mph throughout
the full northbound section of the scheme. The
project took part in initial trials to assess if the
higher speed limit improved customer journeys.
The 60mph limit has been found to reduce
motorist’s journey times, tailgating and lane
switching. It’s a great result for road users.
Not sure why 60mph isn't the defacto 'road work limit' (I'm sure someone can explain why)... with HGVs being limited to an accurate 56mph and most cars speedometers reading 10% over reality, speeds are fairly equal, however at 50 they could be up to 10mph difference especially if the HGV is sat on his limiter.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bryn666 » Sun Dec 20, 2020 09:26

The original reason was the layout of roadworks lacked the geometry for 60 mph and most roadworks vehicle restraint systems are not rated for 60.

You need longer tapers, shallower curves into lane shifts, and stronger barriers for 60. Presumably HE have factored all this in rather than just cutting safety of their "customers" for some more propaganda stunts.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Conekicker » Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:16

Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 09:26
The original reason was the layout of roadworks lacked the geometry for 60 mph and most roadworks vehicle restraint systems are not rated for 60.

You need longer tapers, shallower curves into lane shifts, and stronger barriers for 60. Presumably HE have factored all this in rather than just cutting safety of their "customers" for some more propaganda stunts.
I note that Chapter 8, Part 1 doesn't include crossover lengths for 60mph, only 30, 40 and 50. Presumably the 60 lengths will be added in the upcoming rewrite. Looks at Bomag 8-)
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bomag » Mon Dec 21, 2020 23:22

Conekicker wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:16
Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 09:26
The original reason was the layout of roadworks lacked the geometry for 60 mph and most roadworks vehicle restraint systems are not rated for 60.

You need longer tapers, shallower curves into lane shifts, and stronger barriers for 60. Presumably HE have factored all this in rather than just cutting safety of their "customers" for some more propaganda stunts.
I note that Chapter 8, Part 1 doesn't include crossover lengths for 60mph, only 30, 40 and 50. Presumably the 60 lengths will be added in the upcoming rewrite. Looks at Bomag 8-)
The geometry for 60mph crossovers is in CD192, the replacement for TA92 (which is referenced by Chapter 8).

Since Chapter 8 Part 3 came out there is a requirement to design to the highest safe speed. For HE roads there is an customer standard due out soon. If you read the stuff coming out of Major Project schemes you would have thought 60mph was invented by them. No it was a deliberate part of the relaxations instroduced in TSRGD; up till then all the contraflow and standard scheme signs had a fixed 'x' height for a speed of 50mph. There is also a setback for barriers for 60mph limits (CD377) - the only aspect which is either 50mph or 70mph is working width.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Conekicker » Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:06

Bomag wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 23:22
Conekicker wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:16
Bryn666 wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 09:26
The original reason was the layout of roadworks lacked the geometry for 60 mph and most roadworks vehicle restraint systems are not rated for 60.

You need longer tapers, shallower curves into lane shifts, and stronger barriers for 60. Presumably HE have factored all this in rather than just cutting safety of their "customers" for some more propaganda stunts.
I note that Chapter 8, Part 1 doesn't include crossover lengths for 60mph, only 30, 40 and 50. Presumably the 60 lengths will be added in the upcoming rewrite. Looks at Bomag 8-)
The geometry for 60mph crossovers is in CD192, the replacement for TA92 (which is referenced by Chapter 8).

Since Chapter 8 Part 3 came out there is a requirement to design to the highest safe speed. For HE roads there is an customer standard due out soon. If you read the stuff coming out of Major Project schemes you would have thought 60mph was invented by them. No it was a deliberate part of the relaxations instroduced in TSRGD; up till then all the contraflow and standard scheme signs had a fixed 'x' height for a speed of 50mph. There is also a setback for barriers for 60mph limits (CD377) - the only aspect which is either 50mph or 70mph is working width.
Whilst the bumf is in CD 192 (particularly Table D.4), the average TM designer's eye's will glaze over if they attempt to use it. Which is why the existing Tables 6.1 to 6.4 in Ch8 Pt 1 were originally included, to aid the hard of thinking. Using D.4, I'll work out the appropriate numbers to be added to those tables later today, all being well. Unless someone far cleverer than I can get the old TRL crossover calculator working.

Although for the 60mph case, there's only the 3 step numbers to calculate. Looking at Table D.4, the 0 step numbers for 60mph will be the same for the 3 step numbers for 40mph.

Edit:

Table 6.1 - 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover length = 216m
Paved length = 135m

3 step increase
Crossover length = 306m
Paved length = 180m

Table 6.2 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 180m

3 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 252m

Table 6.3 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover length = 252m
Paved length = 162m

3 step increase
Crossover length = 351m
Paved length = 234m

Table 6.4 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 216m

3 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 306m
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Bomag » Tue Dec 22, 2020 16:37

Conekicker wrote:
Tue Dec 22, 2020 11:06
Bomag wrote:
Mon Dec 21, 2020 23:22
Conekicker wrote:
Sun Dec 20, 2020 11:16
I note that Chapter 8, Part 1 doesn't include crossover lengths for 60mph, only 30, 40 and 50. Presumably the 60 lengths will be added in the upcoming rewrite. Looks at Bomag 8-)
The geometry for 60mph crossovers is in CD192, the replacement for TA92 (which is referenced by Chapter 8).

Since Chapter 8 Part 3 came out there is a requirement to design to the highest safe speed. For HE roads there is an customer standard due out soon. If you read the stuff coming out of Major Project schemes you would have thought 60mph was invented by them. No it was a deliberate part of the relaxations instroduced in TSRGD; up till then all the contraflow and standard scheme signs had a fixed 'x' height for a speed of 50mph. There is also a setback for barriers for 60mph limits (CD377) - the only aspect which is either 50mph or 70mph is working width.
Whilst the bumf is in CD 192 (particularly Table D.4), the average TM designer's eye's will glaze over if they attempt to use it. Which is why the existing Tables 6.1 to 6.4 in Ch8 Pt 1 were originally included, to aid the hard of thinking. Using D.4, I'll work out the appropriate numbers to be added to those tables later today, all being well. Unless someone far cleverer than I can get the old TRL crossover calculator working.

Although for the 60mph case, there's only the 3 step numbers to calculate. Looking at Table D.4, the 0 step numbers for 60mph will be the same for the 3 step numbers for 40mph.

Edit:

Table 6.1 - 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover length = 216m
Paved length = 135m

3 step increase
Crossover length = 306m
Paved length = 180m

Table 6.2 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 180m

3 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 252m

Table 6.3 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover length = 252m
Paved length = 162m

3 step increase
Crossover length = 351m
Paved length = 234m

Table 6.4 – 60mph
0 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 216m

3 step increase
Crossover & paved length = 306m
Ignore my E-mail as I had not seen this. My work tablet is now off until next year

The TA92 software doesn't work properly with anything newer than Win XP.

If I was being picky (and I can easily be so) somebody should not be designing a crossover without having the basic highway engineering knowledge to do so. The diagrams in Chapter 8 are a basic aid and particularly useful for the TSCO who needs to get it on the ground.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by brummie_rob » Tue Dec 29, 2020 19:01

I've noticed they are lane dropping at J14 which I didn't think was originally planned. Worried this will cause queues on approach and bad lane management instead of like the Cheshire section where it runs through the full 18 mile stretch.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by chaseracer » Tue Dec 29, 2020 22:11

The lane drop at gate 13 northbound always seemed to work OK. Is it still there? With working from home, I've not been up that way for a while...

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Big L » Tue Dec 29, 2020 22:19

chaseracer wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 22:11
The lane drop at gate 13 northbound always seemed to work OK. Is it still there? With working from home, I've not been up that way for a while...
That was at the end of a scheme; it was dropping from 4 to 3 one way or the other. It's not been a lane-drop since the roadworks reduced it to 3 lanes on the approach.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Truvelo » Tue Dec 29, 2020 23:29

I don't think either of the Stafford junctions warrants a lane drop. There isn't as high a percentage of traffic joining and leaving as at J15 or 16. As already mentioned, too many lane drops just encourages traffic to sit in lane 2.
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by A303Chris » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:54

brummie_rob wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 19:01
I've noticed they are lane dropping at J14 which I didn't think was originally planned. Worried this will cause queues on approach and bad lane management instead of like the Cheshire section where it runs through the full 18 mile stretch.
Seems to be the in thing. M4 scheme lane drops were only to be J10 (A329(m))and J4b (M25), but as package one nears completion (j8/9 to 12) lane drops Have appeared at J8/9 and J11

To me 4 lanes through the junctions is better as otherwise as happens on the M3 no one uses lane 1 and they become glorified slip roads
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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by Chris5156 » Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:59

A303Chris wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:54
To me 4 lanes through the junctions is better as otherwise as happens on the M3 no one uses lane 1 and they become glorified slip roads
Agreed. You'd hope lessons would have been learned since M25 J10-12 was widened between junctions and not through them, where the fourth lane has been a glorified sliproad for the last 30 years now, but perhaps that's too much to ask :roll:

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by ChrisH » Thu Dec 31, 2020 13:55

Chris5156 wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:59
A303Chris wrote:
Thu Dec 31, 2020 12:54
To me 4 lanes through the junctions is better as otherwise as happens on the M3 no one uses lane 1 and they become glorified slip roads
Agreed. You'd hope lessons would have been learned since M25 J10-12 was widened between junctions and not through them, where the fourth lane has been a glorified sliproad for the last 30 years now, but perhaps that's too much to ask :roll:
I wonder if this is a result of the safety "stocktake" - by introducing more lane drops, they reduce the amount of traffic in lane 1, thereby reducing the risk of collisions...? Of course, by doing so they would also blow up the business case for the project but never mind.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by jackal » Thu Dec 31, 2020 19:38

I actually agree with the lane drops at M25 J10 and J12, as I don't see how else such high merge volumes could be accommodated. If three through lanes isn't enough then the solution isn't no lane drop, it's widening the adjoining sections to D5 with D4 through the junctions. J11 is a different matter of course.

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Re: M6 junction 13 to junction 15 smart motorway

Post by mikehindsonevans » Fri Jan 01, 2021 11:33

brummie_rob wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 19:01
I've noticed they are lane dropping at J14 which I didn't think was originally planned. Worried this will cause queues on approach and bad lane management instead of like the Cheshire section where it runs through the full 18 mile stretch.
There is a southbound lane drop at M6 j16 (I am going to treat that junction as "part of the Cheshire section") and I can attest that there *is* a disconcerting amount of "last-minute southbound lurching to the right".

It is now almost a sport, trying to guess who will lurch when!

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