"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Post Reply
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15
exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:44
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:41These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.
Complaints from those who do not want Welsh to be on the signs, have S4C as a TV station, ie complaints about Welsh existing.
I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:22
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15
exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:44 Complaints from those who do not want Welsh to be on the signs, have S4C as a TV station, ie complaints about Welsh existing.
I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.
The opinion the residents of England is immaterial here, we don't get a say or any kind of vote on the matter. What matters is the feeling of the residents of the various parts of Wales, and they are the Welsh, whether they speak that language or not. Some of them feel that they have been railroaded into having a language they don't speak ahead of one that they do in their part of Wales where they are in the majority. Are they wrong to feel that way?
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:30
exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:22
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.
The opinion the residents of England is immaterial here, we don't get a say or any kind of vote on the matter. What matters is the feeling of the residents of the various parts of Wales, and they are the Welsh, whether they speak that language or not. Some of them feel that they have been railroaded into having a language they don't speak ahead of one that they do in their part of Wales where they are in the majority. Are they wrong to feel that way?
By and large there appears to be little objection to bilingual signage in Wales, it is now a fact of life. Welsh is an official language of the whole of Wales, not just the bits of Wales it is spoken in. Where there is objection is not that there is Welsh on the signs, it is that Welsh exists. Same in Scotland for a lot of the objections over Gaelic.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Steven »

Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
Except the people complaining about it on this thread are English if I'm not mistaken...
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:39
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
Except the people complaining about it on this thread are English if I'm not mistaken...
It's up to the Welsh as to how it goes. I do object to the idea that it's somehow all the fault of the English, when Wales has full devolved power over this matter, legal as well as administrative.
Last edited by Chris Bertram on Tue Sep 14, 2021 09:27, edited 2 times in total.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

crb11 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:03 If my in-laws are representative, the feeling of Welsh people in such areas ranges from "that's nice to have as a reflection of our heritage" to "a bit of a waste of money if you ask me" but feelings aren't strong enough on either side for it to be an issue they'd bother complaining to anyone about. (It only came up as a topic of conversation at my brother's wedding as the bilingual signs in the area had started going up shortly beforehand.)
This is probably how it is; it's not a big enough issue to sway many votes, but not everyone is bought into it. So be it.

I'm sure we have some South Walian posters on this forum. How do they feel?
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
TS
Member
Posts: 611
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 17:18
Location: Bournemouth

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by TS »

Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:19
c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 09:59 Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.

Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.

The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
I have been an advocate for adopting colour differential on Welsh signs for years but with the language parity act anything that lets either language look more important is a problem. This is why the annoying chop and change of which went first used to happen - it was quite a battle to get Welsh first agreed, but I'd simply point out the country is Wales so the native language - Welsh - should be first. English was an imposition, even if everyone speaks it, so there's an obvious cultural reason for Welsh first.

With town names - long term you just drop the name you don't want. Nobody says Maryborough now do they?

People don't lose their minds because we no longer call the town I'm in "Bolton-le-Moors" or "Great Bolton" any more.
I'm not convinced that lack of differentiation between the names (colour or italics or whatever), is a barrier to a motorist's navigation and safety.

If I want to travel to, say, Devizes, I won't be interested in Pewsey or Marlborough or Swindon, so my eye will be drawn to look for the shape of the word Devizes on the sign and ignore the unwanted information.

I don't see why it would be any different if, in this example, I was travelling to Cardiff and the other three destinations on the sign were Caerdydd, Bridgend and Pen-y-bont.

I don't need to know that two of those are Welsh names for the same English placenames on the sign; I can just ignore them as of no consequence to me.
swissferry
Member
Posts: 319
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2017 20:42

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by swissferry »

The B888, although single track, is fast and fun. Traffic is light and the sight lines are excellent. However, I took a wrong turn due to this bilingual Gaelic sign. There was no advance direction sign. The sign at the junction is fairly small with English in a smaller font than Gaelic. My Gaelic is limited. The Gaelic places names wrap onto a second line. I was expecting to carry straight on but on reaching the junction at the last moment I spotted the Gaelic for Lochboisdale (not realising the line above contained the Gaelic for South) and turned up the road and ended up on the wrong side of the loch.

Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
User avatar
Bryn666
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 35754
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 20:54
Contact:

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Bryn666 »

swissferry wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 22:26 The B888, although single track, is fast and fun. Traffic is light and the sight lines are excellent. However, I took a wrong turn due to this bilingual Gaelic sign. There was no advance direction sign. The sign at the junction is fairly small with English in a smaller font than Gaelic. My Gaelic is limited. The Gaelic places names wrap onto a second line. I was expecting to carry straight on but on reaching the junction at the last moment I spotted the Gaelic for Lochboisdale (not realising the line above contained the Gaelic for South) and turned up the road and ended up on the wrong side of the loch.

Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
Mixed x-heights is the worst system for this very reason and away from the Hebrides it is widely avoided.
Bryn
Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.

Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by bothar »

swissferry wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 22:26 Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
The navigation problem is partly caused by poor maps, which do not have the local language name on the map or if they do it is totally inconsistent, Google Maps suggests that Taobh a' Deas Loch Baghasdail and South Lochboisdale are different neighbouring places. In Irish Gaeltacht places, which have signs only in Irish nowadays, many maps lack this information.
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 00:33 Mixed x-heights is the worst system for this very reason and away from the Hebrides it is widely avoided.
This layout by Comhairle nan Eileann Siar de facto makes those signs Gaelic only as the English is so small it renders it superfluous at anything but slow speeds. Very similar to the supermarket aisle signs in Québec where at least you are at walking speed.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Bryn666 wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 00:33 Mixed x-heights is the worst system for this very reason and away from the Hebrides it is widely avoided.
Talking of Western Isles, surprised this one still survives.

posting.php?mode=quote&f=1&p=1205732
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
ajuk
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 23:59
Location: Bristol

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by ajuk »

It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.

The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
User avatar
Osthagen
Member
Posts: 3342
Joined: Sun Apr 19, 2015 15:01
Location: Mercia

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Osthagen »

ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.

The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.

You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Osthagen wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 21:04
ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.

The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.

You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
Doesn't matter if there are few monoglot Welsh speakers over the age of 5. Both languages are co-official, and removing one because 'everyone speaks the other' is bad practice. God knows how Brits cope in NL or France.

What would help and seems to be being used are either two separate signs, one Welsh one English, or a sign that can carry both at the same time.

Both languages are co-official, and you have the Welsh on the signs in SE Wales so that English is on the signs in Ceredigion, Gwynedd, and Ynys Mon.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
bothar
Member
Posts: 4808
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2007 22:50
Location: Dublin, Ireland

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by bothar »

ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The issue is not the local residents, who do not need directional signs. The issue is whether the proper name of their place will be made available to visitors or whether the visitors will only be exposed to pidgin which will eventually drive out the original name.
ajuk wrote:The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
Electronic signs providing dynamic information are a different issue. As far as possible such signs should have minimum text in any language, the Welsh speakers might understand English well but the Bulgarian truck driver will not. There is a case for a very limited vocabulary in English only here, but mostly symbols.
"I intend to always travel a different road"
Ibn Battuta 1304-1368
User avatar
ajuk
Member
Posts: 929
Joined: Thu Nov 10, 2011 23:59
Location: Bristol

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by ajuk »

Osthagen wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 21:04
ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.

The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.

You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
I would maintain bilingual for such things as "welcome to" signs and place names.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who assume that being anti-Welsh signs is akin to being against the Welsh language, and a lot of people are for that reason, I'm not one of them, I'm happy for the Welsh to preserve their language.
User avatar
exiled
President
Posts: 24635
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 17:36
Location: South Lanarkshire

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 23:33 I would maintain bilingual for such things as "welcome to" signs and place names.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who assume that being anti-Welsh signs is akin to being against the Welsh language, and a lot of people are for that reason, I'm not one of them, I'm happy for the Welsh to preserve their language.
So use the language as just a tourist bauble. Well, Luxembourg and Malta have learnt that does not work. If you want the languages to be co-official and equal in use, both have to be on the signs, which is the policy in Wales. Using the local language as a bauble is almost always just a sop to say 'see, we recognise it' whilst trying to kill it off, as France has done with Breton, Occitan, Alsatian, and others.

Languages are best served by being used, and by being on the metal means Welsh is better served than a lot of other minority languages.
Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

bothar wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 22:14
ajuk wrote: Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The issue is not the local residents, who do not need directional signs. The issue is whether the proper name of their place will be made available to visitors or whether the visitors will only be exposed to pidgin which will eventually drive out the original name.
ajuk wrote:The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
Electronic signs providing dynamic information are a different issue. As far as possible such signs should have minimum text in any language, the Welsh speakers might understand English well but the Bulgarian truck driver will not. There is a case for a very limited vocabulary in English only here, but mostly symbols.
There is a fighting chance that your Bulgarian truck driver might understand some English. There is next to no chance of them understanding any Welsh.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
User avatar
RichardA35
Committee Member
Posts: 5705
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2002 18:58
Location: Dorset

Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by RichardA35 »

This appears to me to be a projection of English cultural imperialism. We should let the Welsh use their own language as they see fit and publications that include that country should adapt.
OS maps and atlases have bilingual names printed where there is reasonable disparity such as Mold (even Wrexham) - it is a shame that Google apparently does not, even though it does recognise if you type in e.g. Abertawe to Yr Wyddgrug or Wrecsam.

A lorry driver may have similarly travelled through France on his way to England and then Wales.
Are we suggesting, for instance, that France should have bilingual VMS signs because terms such as

"pneus sous gonfles"
"bouchon"
"ralentir"

each of which I have seen displayed and have an important safety context, are not understood by people not fluent in French?
Post Reply