"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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WHBM
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by WHBM »

Chris Bertram wrote:
rhyds wrote:The formal word is "Heddwas" or "Peace Servant", with "Heddlu" being "Peace Force"
OK, but in everyday use on the streets of Dolgellau?
Certainly in everyday use on the streets of Westminster, on the uniforms of groups of police, where it seems standard form nowadays for any required reinforcements of The Met at key times to be obtained by the coachload from Wales.
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Viator
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Viator »

If no-one else beats me to it I'll see if I can take a photo or two next time I'm in Cardiff (though that probably won't be before the end of the month). In the meantime here, at least, is the sign at the start of the new stretch: http://www.faukie.com/recursos/img/3311 ... 164636.jpg.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Glom »

Btw, if anyone thinks they're missing a few bilingual signs, I think Highways England may have nicked them. They're presently on the A303 near Andover.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Glom wrote:Btw, if anyone thinks they're missing a few bilingual signs, I think Highways England may have nicked them. They're presently on the A303 near Andover.
I suppose a border raid does save a bit of money!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by justacey »

Welsh signs don't change am/pm
http://www.traffic-wales.com/traffic_si ... /618-1.pdf

The normal rules when text wraps onto another line is to centralise the Welsh, centralise the English, then left justify the Welsh with the English http://www.traffic-wales.com/traffic_si ... s/2015.pdf
In the OP, with the Welsh first and the Llantrisant being used for both languages, it cannot follow these rules.

This site http://www.traffic-wales.com/traffic_signs.aspx# is where the working drawings are, I'm still waiting for the new TSRGD version.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by ajuk »

I go there a lot and they are such a mess, at least have the Welsh a different colour if you must translate every sign, even the electronic signs have them, which reduces the opportunity to see what they're saying by 50% to most drivers. It's really pretentious really because they're unnecessary, genuinely Polish bilingual signs would help more people.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by rhyds »

ajuk wrote:I go there a lot and they are such a mess, at least have the Welsh a different colour if you must translate every sign, even the electronic signs have them, which reduces the opportunity to see what they're saying by 50% to most drivers. It's really pretentious really because they're unnecessary, genuinely Polish bilingual signs would help more people.
Pretentious? Expecting the government who are happy enough to ask for my taxes through Welsh to spend an extra few quid on putting Welsh on signs is pretentious?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Yeah, pretentious as in pretending there are a significant number of Welsh people who can't speak English. And there genuinely are more Polish people in Wales who struggle to read English than there are Welsh people who struggle to read English.
I don't get it really, unless non-English literacy is a thing to be encouraged?

I can see why place names and the odd "Welcome To" signs etc, should be bi-lingual, I'm not anti-Welsh or anti Welsh language at all, I mean you can write an essay if you like to tell you why I am, but I don't care because I'm really not, at lease that's not where I'm coming from with my objection to it.
I even learned some Welsh phrases when I'm over there.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by rhyds »

ajuk wrote:Yeah, pretentious as in pretending there are a significant number of Welsh people who can't speak English. And there genuinely are more Polish people in Wales who struggle to read English than there are Welsh people who struggle to read English.
I don't get it really, unless non-English literacy is a thing to be encouraged?

I can see why place names and the odd "Welcome To" signs etc, should be bi-lingual, I'm not anti-Welsh or anti Welsh language at all, I mean you can write an essay if you like to tell you why I am, but I don't care because I'm really not, at lease that's not where I'm coming from with my objection to it.
I even learned some Welsh phrases when I'm over there.
Its not about whether someone can speak English or not. As I've explained before road signs are effectively government communications, just like tax forms or the council "news" paper that ends up lining the bottom of my recycling box. I expect my government to talk to me in the language of my Country, and I don't want them to take the lazy way out and go "just read the English one" as I find that particularly infuriating. The problem for most English folk is that they're so used to having everything from films to the stickers on the back of a TV in English is they really don't understand why anyone would ever want to speak anything else.

Welsh and English are both official languages in Wales and have to be given equal treatment by government, therefore there will always be Welsh signs. The best example of this was when the Coalition government in Westminster decided to ban driving theory and practical tests being taken in foreign languages, all of the Westminster Minister's speeches about the matter had to include the fact you can take your driving test in English or Welsh, which was hilarious to find a Tory having to say...
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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rhyds wrote:
ajuk wrote:Yeah, pretentious as in pretending there are a significant number of Welsh people who can't speak English. And there genuinely are more Polish people in Wales who struggle to read English than there are Welsh people who struggle to read English.
I don't get it really, unless non-English literacy is a thing to be encouraged?

I can see why place names and the odd "Welcome To" signs etc, should be bi-lingual, I'm not anti-Welsh or anti Welsh language at all, I mean you can write an essay if you like to tell you why I am, but I don't care because I'm really not, at lease that's not where I'm coming from with my objection to it.
I even learned some Welsh phrases when I'm over there.
Its not about whether someone can speak English or not. As I've explained before road signs are effectively government communications, just like tax forms or the council "news" paper that ends up lining the bottom of my recycling box. I expect my government to talk to me in the language of my Country, and I don't want them to take the lazy way out and go "just read the English one" as I find that particularly infuriating. The problem for most English folk is that they're so used to having everything from films to the stickers on the back of a TV in English is they really don't understand why anyone would ever want to speak anything else.

Welsh and English are both official languages in Wales and have to be given equal treatment by government, therefore there will always be Welsh signs. The best example of this was when the Coalition government in Westminster decided to ban driving theory and practical tests being taken in foreign languages, all of the Westminster Minister's speeches about the matter had to include the fact you can take your driving test in English or Welsh, which was hilarious to find a Tory having to say...
I have tried to explain my position before but now using a different tack.

If (Norman) French had remained the official language and reduced English to the first language of about 20% of England's population. Would the signs be tolerated only showing 'Londres', 'Ralentissez' or 'Cedez le Passage' because 'everyone spoke French'?

Yes, more people speak Polish than Welsh, or Slovak than Gaelic in the UK, but Welsh and Gaelic are co-equal official languages with English in Wales and Scotland, and should be treated as such.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by ajuk »

As far as I see it road signs aren't there to make national statements, they are there to simply convey a message, and to be understood by as many people as simply as possible.

They even have on the M4 passed the last exit before England :laugh:, I don't get it, if you really need them by that point you are screwed once you get over the bridge. That's why it comes across as pretentious to me, I'm sorry it just does.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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ajuk wrote:As far as I see it road signs aren't there to make national statements, they are there to simply convey a message, and to be understood by as many people as simply as possible.
It's not a "national statement", but a case of national law. Signage is Wales is simply in the official languages of the country where the placenames or plated message in the two languages differ.

Suggesting that one of those official languages should be ignored comes across somewhat as English Imperialism, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you're trying to get across.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Steven wrote:Suggesting that one of those official languages should be ignored comes across somewhat as English Imperialism, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you're trying to get across.
However, it still seems unnecessary that the most recent change removes the ability for the county and county borough councils to set their local "priority" for which language comes first, an ability they had had for many years. I have little doubt that Welsh-first is appropriate for Gwynedd, Ynys Mon and Ceredigion. I am less convinced that it is appropriate for Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire (among others).
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
Steven wrote:Suggesting that one of those official languages should be ignored comes across somewhat as English Imperialism, and I'm pretty sure that's not what you're trying to get across.
However, it still seems unnecessary that the most recent change removes the ability for the county and county borough councils to set their local "priority" for which language comes first, an ability they had had for many years. I have little doubt that Welsh-first is appropriate for Gwynedd, Ynys Mon and Ceredigion. I am less convinced that it is appropriate for Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire (among others).
One of the rules for bilingual signage is consistency, on this having the local option Wales was falling back. In Ireland Irish is always first, in Scotland Gaelic is now first.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:I have little doubt that Welsh-first is appropriate for Gwynedd, Ynys Mon and Ceredigion. I am less convinced that it is appropriate for Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire (among others).
One of the rules for bilingual signage is consistency, on this having the local option Wales was falling back. In Ireland Irish is always first, in Scotland Gaelic is now first.
Irish and Gaelic are in different fonts or in different colours from English. They could be in either order and there would still be no confusion. Yet this option for Welsh is always dismissed, which seems odd, given that at a stroke it would solve the problem while allowing local preference for order to stand.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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ajuk wrote:As far as I see it road signs aren't there to make national statements, they are there to simply convey a message, and to be understood by as many people as simply as possible.

They even have on the M4 passed the last exit before England :laugh:, I don't get it, if you really need them by that point you are screwed once you get over the bridge. That's why it comes across as pretentious to me, I'm sorry it just does.
You are still in Wales at that point and Welsh signage regs still apply. Same as the last signs before the border with Germany after the point of no return in France are in French, and hazards on the Irish border are signed with the signage appropriate to the jurisdiction the sign is in when the hazard isn't.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:I have little doubt that Welsh-first is appropriate for Gwynedd, Ynys Mon and Ceredigion. I am less convinced that it is appropriate for Cardiff, Newport, Swansea, Wrexham, the Vale of Glamorgan and Monmouthshire (among others).
One of the rules for bilingual signage is consistency, on this having the local option Wales was falling back. In Ireland Irish is always first, in Scotland Gaelic is now first.
Irish and Gaelic are in different fonts or in different colours from English. They could be in either order and there would still be no confusion. Yet this option for Welsh is always dismissed, which seems odd, given that at a stroke it would solve the problem while allowing local preference for order to stand.
The colour, the fonts and the order are all specified in the regs. The local preference is really a way of pretending Welsh does not exist in places like Monmouthshire.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:The colour, the fonts and the order are all specified in the regs. The local preference is really a way of pretending Welsh does not exist in places like Monmouthshire.
Regs can be changed, and have been, most recently by imposing a national policy on the language order. I cannot see a *good* reason for Wales not to copy Scotland in varying the colour for each language (though I'm also aware that the inclusion of Gaelic is controversial in areas with no Gaelic tradition worth speaking of).

There are a few legacy English-only signs dotted around Monmouthshire, and I saw some in Wrexham last time I was up there too, but all new erections conform to the regs as they stand.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:The colour, the fonts and the order are all specified in the regs. The local preference is really a way of pretending Welsh does not exist in places like Monmouthshire.
Regs can be changed, and have been, most recently by imposing a national policy on the language order. I cannot see a *good* reason for Wales not to copy Scotland in varying the colour for each language (though I'm also aware that the inclusion of Gaelic is controversial in areas with no Gaelic tradition worth speaking of).

There are a few legacy English-only signs dotted around Monmouthshire, and I saw some in Wrexham last time I was up there too, but all new erections conform to the regs as they stand.
Regs can be changed and this is now something for the Welsh Government and Welsh Assembly to discuss. The main reason for Wales not to follow the colour scheme is now cost as Wales was one of the lessons Scotland learnt from on bilingualising signs.

The key bits of bilingual design are not colour, they are consistency and equality. I find my eyes drawn to the Irish more than to Gaelic or Welsh due to the unequal fonts. Where they flip flop around, the local option, it makes it harder to follow.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:The key bits of bilingual design are not colour, they are consistency and equality. I find my eyes drawn to the Irish more than to Gaelic or Welsh due to the unequal fonts. Where they flip flop around, the local option, it makes it harder to follow.
If they swap places, but the colour convention is consistent, I cannot see the problem. As for cost of transition, this has been dealt with before in other contexts. Let's look at Scotland, where an awful lot of signs are suddenly - and possibly prematurely - reaching "end of life" and having to be replaced, with the new versions adding Gaelic. For Wales, it would be easier and cheaper, you just add a plate or sticker over with the new colour.
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