"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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RichardA35
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by RichardA35 »

Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:58
ikcdab wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:50 In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
I agree and I also feel that I, as an Englishman living outside Wales, have to respect the choices of the democratically elected government in the country for how they wish to safeguard the language. However for a close relative of mine living in Wales who is bilingual, he has every right to protest or comment etc.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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RichardA35 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:28
Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:58
ikcdab wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:50 In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
I agree and I also feel that I, as an Englishman living outside Wales, have to respect the choices of the democratically elected government in the country for how they wish to safeguard the language. However for a close relative of mine living in Wales who is bilingual, he has every right to protest or comment etc.
Many do. But since almost all the parties have "Welsh first" policy for road signs, they don't get a lot of choice in the matter. Only a single subject vote would make a difference, and it doesn't seem to be on offer.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Bryn666 »

How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 09:59
Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:58
ikcdab wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:50 In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.

Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.

The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 09:59
Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:58
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.

Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.

The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
I have been an advocate for adopting colour differential on Welsh signs for years but with the language parity act anything that lets either language look more important is a problem. This is why the annoying chop and change of which went first used to happen - it was quite a battle to get Welsh first agreed, but I'd simply point out the country is Wales so the native language - Welsh - should be first. English was an imposition, even if everyone speaks it, so there's an obvious cultural reason for Welsh first.

With town names - long term you just drop the name you don't want. Nobody says Maryborough now do they?

People don't lose their minds because we no longer call the town I'm in "Bolton-le-Moors" or "Great Bolton" any more.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:19
c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:13
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 09:59 Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.

Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.

The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
I have been an advocate for adopting colour differential on Welsh signs for years but with the language parity act anything that lets either language look more important is a problem. This is why the annoying chop and change of which went first used to happen - it was quite a battle to get Welsh first agreed, but I'd simply point out the country is Wales so the native language - Welsh - should be first. English was an imposition, even if everyone speaks it, so there's an obvious cultural reason for Welsh first.

With town names - long term you just drop the name you don't want. Nobody says Maryborough now do they?

People don't lose their minds because we no longer call the town I'm in "Bolton-le-Moors" or "Great Bolton" any more.
Absolutely, but there's an obvious balance between designing signs taking into account culture, nagivation, safety, and aesthetics. I don't like the difference in font size used in Ireland in these cases as it implies that somewhere with a translation is less important when viewed at a glance as the driver's attention is directed to the largest wording. Similarly, it wouldn't make sense to duplicate the same wording if there was no translation - it's all stuff that needs to be thought about.

Also please can highways authorities use two VMS signs rather than switching a single sign between a page of text and its translation!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:27
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:19
c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:13

I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.

Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.

The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
I have been an advocate for adopting colour differential on Welsh signs for years but with the language parity act anything that lets either language look more important is a problem. This is why the annoying chop and change of which went first used to happen - it was quite a battle to get Welsh first agreed, but I'd simply point out the country is Wales so the native language - Welsh - should be first. English was an imposition, even if everyone speaks it, so there's an obvious cultural reason for Welsh first.

With town names - long term you just drop the name you don't want. Nobody says Maryborough now do they?

People don't lose their minds because we no longer call the town I'm in "Bolton-le-Moors" or "Great Bolton" any more.
Absolutely, but there's an obvious balance between designing signs taking into account culture, nagivation, safety, and aesthetics. I don't like the difference in font size used in Ireland in these cases as it implies that somewhere with a translation is less important when viewed at a glance as the driver's attention is directed to the largest wording. Similarly, it wouldn't make sense to duplicate the same wording if there was no translation - it's all stuff that needs to be thought about.

Also please can highways authorities use two VMS signs rather than switching a single sign between a page of text and its translation!
Oh yes, there's a heck of a lot I don't like about Welsh signs policy but the fact they're bilingual in the first place isn't one of them.

I have never liked the Irish italics, I know it's more in line with Gaelic but it's hard to read, ugly, and has the issues you raise. The 1979-89 Irish sign system was, for my 2p, much better.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:29 Oh yes, there's a heck of a lot I don't like about Welsh signs policy but the fact they're bilingual in the first place isn't one of them.

I have never liked the Irish italics, I know it's more in line with Gaelic but it's hard to read, ugly, and has the issues you raise. The 1979-89 Irish sign system was, for my 2p, much better.
Yes, I agree that the Italics don't look wonderful. But the current system is a massive improvement on the older design with each lane signed separately - this sort of thing was massively horrible

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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Gareth Thomas »

A random thought. Could it be easier if all the Welsh is together on the sign, and then all the English underneath it?

So whereas you might have at the moment:

Cardiff
Caerdydd

Bridgend
Pen-y-bont

Swansea
Abertawe
M4

It could be replaced with

Caerdydd
Pen-y-bont
Abertawe

Cardiff
Bridgend
Swansea
M4

It could save on spacing as well?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Again, I suppose it's a design choice - you could have one full Welsh RCS sign followed by one full English one - as long as consistency is applied throughout a country I don't think it matters from a usability perspective.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
There used to be "English priority" and "Welsh priority", determined locally. Is there any record of people getting lost because of this? I think everyone just dealt with it like adults, and the only moaning came from Welsh nationalists. So it's arguably Welsh exceptionalism that we're seeing these days.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 14:43
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
There used to be "English priority" and "Welsh priority", determined locally. Is there any record of people getting lost because of this? I think everyone just dealt with it like adults, and the only moaning came from Welsh nationalists. So it's arguably Welsh exceptionalism that we're seeing these days.
That's fine when you're looking at a timetable in a ticketing hall, or a doctor's waiting room, but less useful when trying to navigate lane changes on a complex intersection, or dealing with written warning signs about upcoming hazards - location of the information on the signs being clear and consistent is more important - moving stuff about dependent on where you are in the country is less useful, particularly where the information being presented is the same size, colour, and font.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
However in Switzerland the destinations are in the language of the canton the town sits in, rather than the annoying Belgian system where they are in the language of the location of the sign. You do not have to remember that Genf is the German for Geneva, where as you need to know that Bergen is the Flemish for Mons.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 14:43
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
There used to be "English priority" and "Welsh priority", determined locally. Is there any record of people getting lost because of this? I think everyone just dealt with it like adults, and the only moaning came from Welsh nationalists. So it's arguably Welsh exceptionalism that we're seeing these days.
Given that Gwent and Mid Glamorgan used the local option to try and avoid putting Welsh on the signs, that can be considered moaning about it from non nationalists. It was during the time of the local option that you also had the most complaints about the bilingual signs being confusing, often again by those who just wanted Welsh to go away.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Gareth Thomas wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:54 A random thought. Could it be easier if all the Welsh is together on the sign, and then all the English underneath it?
It would be interesting to see experimental evidence on this. My gut feeling is that I would personally find it harder, but this may well not be universal. The way I read signs (I think, at least) is that I treat the pair of names for a placename as a single unit, so once I'm in Wales I'm no longer following signs to "Cardiff" but to "Caerdydd Cardiff", so in your example I'm picking out one long name from a sign with three on it, rather than trying to pick out "Cardiff" from a sign with six names on it. In fact personally I prefer having the two names with identical typography, as my brain won't play this trick otherwise, and it finds the Scottish ones much less intuitive.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:12
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 14:43
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 12:56 How do places like Switzerland cope where the languages on sign change dependent on which canton you're in, and they're not bilingual. You can drive into a tunnel in French and emerge in German.

Must be hell on earth.

Or maybe they just deal with it like adults and stop moaning about trivial things driven by English exceptionalism.
There used to be "English priority" and "Welsh priority", determined locally. Is there any record of people getting lost because of this? I think everyone just dealt with it like adults, and the only moaning came from Welsh nationalists. So it's arguably Welsh exceptionalism that we're seeing these days.
Given that Gwent and Mid Glamorgan used the local option to try and avoid putting Welsh on the signs, that can be considered moaning about it from non nationalists. It was during the time of the local option that you also had the most complaints about the bilingual signs being confusing, often again by those who just wanted Welsh to go away.
These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.

Both languages will, and should, continue, to appear on the signs. But the confusion involved in changing priorities was greatly exaggerated - and changes didn't happen frequently, it's not like it was every third lamppost. Still, we are where we are and it's up to the Welsh to sort it out for themselves.
Last edited by Chris Bertram on Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:41These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.
Complaints from those who do not want Welsh to be on the signs, have S4C as a TV station, ie complaints about Welsh existing.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:41 ]These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.
If my in-laws are representative, the feeling of Welsh people in such areas ranges from "that's nice to have as a reflection of our heritage" to "a bit of a waste of money if you ask me" but feelings aren't strong enough on either side for it to be an issue they'd bother complaining to anyone about. (It only came up as a topic of conversation at my brother's wedding as the bilingual signs in the area had started going up shortly beforehand.)
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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c2R wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:39
Bryn666 wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:29 Oh yes, there's a heck of a lot I don't like about Welsh signs policy but the fact they're bilingual in the first place isn't one of them.

I have never liked the Irish italics, I know it's more in line with Gaelic but it's hard to read, ugly, and has the issues you raise. The 1979-89 Irish sign system was, for my 2p, much better.
Yes, I agree that the Italics don't look wonderful. But the current system is a massive improvement on the older design with each lane signed separately - this sort of thing was massively horrible

Image
The previous system had no provision for gantries, these were a horrible experiment. I'm referring to the non-italic signs that were once on the M1 Airport Motorway and M7 Naas Bypass:

Image

The non-italics just look so much tidier. M1 is in a white box because it was patched onto this sign - the original fork signs didn't list road numbers.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:44
Chris Bertram wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:41These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.
Complaints from those who do not want Welsh to be on the signs, have S4C as a TV station, ie complaints about Welsh existing.
I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
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