"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
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- Gareth Thomas
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"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
It was my understanding that whether English or Welsh is on top on the bilingual signs depends on which county or local authority you are in. Those in South Wales tend to have English on top whereas those in North and West Wales have Welsh on top.
Yet driving down the A4119 yesterday in the "English first" Rhondda Cynon Taf, I noticed a few signs have appeared where the Welsh is now on the top.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55230 ... 56!6m1!1e1
Is this a mistake or have the guidelines been changed?
Yet driving down the A4119 yesterday in the "English first" Rhondda Cynon Taf, I noticed a few signs have appeared where the Welsh is now on the top.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55230 ... 56!6m1!1e1
Is this a mistake or have the guidelines been changed?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
What really needs to be done in terms of Welsh-language signage is some kind of distinction between the Welsh text and the English.
We get this right with the Gaelic in the Highlands, with Gaelic text being displayed in a different colour to the English. Yellow on the green signs. Green on the white signs. Why can't Wales implement something similar?
We get this right with the Gaelic in the Highlands, with Gaelic text being displayed in a different colour to the English. Yellow on the green signs. Green on the white signs. Why can't Wales implement something similar?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.Gareth Thomas wrote:It was my understanding that whether English or Welsh is on top on the bilingual signs depends on which county or local authority you are in. Those in South Wales tend to have English on top whereas those in North and West Wales have Welsh on top.
Yet driving down the A4119 yesterday in the "English first" Rhondda Cynon Taf, I noticed a few signs have appeared where the Welsh is now on the top.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55230 ... 56!6m1!1e1
Is this a mistake or have the guidelines been changed?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.
I've noticed that VMSs are in either English or Welsh and they usually alternate between the two languages as they can't fit both on one sign. If there are any important messages and they come up first in Welsh on roads such as the M4 from the Severn Bridge to Cardiff, I'm sure there'll only be a small minority who'll understand them and take the necessary action if there's a road closed, accident, etc.
I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
I've noticed that VMSs are in either English or Welsh and they usually alternate between the two languages as they can't fit both on one sign. If there are any important messages and they come up first in Welsh on roads such as the M4 from the Severn Bridge to Cardiff, I'm sure there'll only be a small minority who'll understand them and take the necessary action if there's a road closed, accident, etc.
I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The lack of distinction between the languages really doesn't help.
At least it will be consistent if welsh is on top. Would have preferred colour distinction or a different typeface.
At least it will be consistent if welsh is on top. Would have preferred colour distinction or a different typeface.
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
... just so long as the "green paint" and "red paint" brigades do not resurface!
When we visited South Wales in the late 1960s (following the opening of the Severn Bridge and the subsequent spread westwards of the M4), we noticed that opposing language groups were spraying out the "other" language translation on road signs. Very immature and not very helpful!
Hwyl fawr am nawr!!
Mike
When we visited South Wales in the late 1960s (following the opening of the Severn Bridge and the subsequent spread westwards of the M4), we noticed that opposing language groups were spraying out the "other" language translation on road signs. Very immature and not very helpful!
Hwyl fawr am nawr!!
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Stuff local preference as well. Still, there'd been a gradual spread of "Welsh first" even in areas where English was clearly the majority language. We drove through Powys in the early 90's, and at that stage it was English priority. Repeating the journey about 15 years later it was the other way round. Powys hadn't become a majority Welsh-speaking area during that time (there are pockets here and there, but no more), so why the change?Bomag wrote:Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Flintshire was always English first, but I seem to recall seeing a few Welsh first signs when I visited in April.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I grew up in Swansea, and moved away 25 years ago. Back in the 80s there was one Welsh language secondary school in West Glam. Today there are at least 3 in the Swansea half of the old county. Previously, you would rarely hear welsh spoken in the city, now it is commonly heard in the city centre.KeithW wrote:It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
I've had emails from Cardiff City Council and the disclaimer includes a statement to the effect that if you contact the council in welsh you'll get a response in Welsh and it won't be delayed as a result.
There is no doubt that Welsh is thriving, and as a non-Welsh speaker, I welcome this. I have no issue with putting both languages on signs, Welsh first, in the same font, or in different fonts. The only question I have regarding the latter is which font or colour should be used for the English names?
Simon
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- Chris Bertram
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The local accent south of the Landsker Line is said to have more in common with SW England than the adjacent parts of Wales. But people move around, and this may not be so true anymore.KeithW wrote:It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I remember on one of my visits to Wales someone mentioning Welsh being used a lot more in schools since the 1980s.
He hadn't had any lessons in it when we was at school in the 1960s-70s, but his children did.
He hadn't had any lessons in it when we was at school in the 1960s-70s, but his children did.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I think if the Welsh want the VMSs to have Welsh on then they should erect a double VMS (two next to each other) at each point they have one, especially on major routes like the M4 which will see plenty of non-Welsh people using them!Octaviadriver wrote:A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.
I've noticed that VMSs are in either English or Welsh and they usually alternate between the two languages as they can't fit both on one sign. If there are any important messages and they come up first in Welsh on roads such as the M4 from the Severn Bridge to Cardiff, I'm sure there'll only be a small minority who'll understand them and take the necessary action if there's a road closed, accident, etc.
I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
They can then have one in English and one in Welsh.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
My girlfriend went to Germany and met a German who thought that being Irish meant that she was British. When she explained that Ireland is divided into two parts - one of which is completely independent from the UK - he was confounded. Apparently he frowned and said: "But the English rule Ireland, no?"Octaviadriver wrote:A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I agree with this - happy for consistent ordering with Welsh first but really find it difficult when VMS constantly flicks between languages - to fast and you can't read it; too slow and you're past it before it changes to English...lotrjw wrote:I think if the Welsh want the VMSs to have Welsh on then they should erect a double VMS (two next to each other) at each point they have one, especially on major routes like the M4 which will see plenty of non-Welsh people using them!
They can then have one in English and one in Welsh.
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- Mark Hewitt
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
https://www.duolingo.com/course/cy/en/L ... lsh-OnlineOctaviadriver wrote: I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Any sort of message sign be it on a motorway, or a bus or doctors surgery etc 'grinds my gears' when it flips between two things especially if they are two halves of the same message. Either fit the entire message on one screen, or don't bother.c2R wrote: I agree with this - happy for consistent ordering with Welsh first but really find it difficult when VMS constantly flicks between languages - to fast and you can't read it; too slow and you're past it before it changes to English...
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Not good. Doesn't understand Gog Welsh and is rather rigid. The pronunciation is a little off, too, giving "cath" (cat) a long vowel sound, making it sound more like "gardd" (garden).Mark Hewitt wrote:https://www.duolingo.com/course/cy/en/L ... lsh-Online
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Must admit I haven't looked at it myself. But certainly Duolingo has a reputation for a being a good free of charge start in learning, but it's just a start - perhaps this needs to be in learning languages!nowster wrote:Not good. Doesn't understand Gog Welsh and is rather rigid. The pronunciation is a little off, too, giving "cath" (cat) a long vowel sound, making it sound more like "gardd" (garden).Mark Hewitt wrote:https://www.duolingo.com/course/cy/en/L ... lsh-Online
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Language policy is devolved to the Welsh Assembly, improving the position of Welsh has been one of the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government's goals since devolution.Chris Bertram wrote:Stuff local preference as well. Still, there'd been a gradual spread of "Welsh first" even in areas where English was clearly the majority language. We drove through Powys in the early 90's, and at that stage it was English priority. Repeating the journey about 15 years later it was the other way round. Powys hadn't become a majority Welsh-speaking area during that time (there are pockets here and there, but no more), so why the change?Bomag wrote:Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.
In terms of comprehension this actually improves it, as there will be one system Welsh first across Wales. The key point points are consistency and equality with bilingual signing.
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