"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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The magic money tree will always bear fruit for pet projects. With Wales and Welsh nothing is likely to change if there is a feeling of downgrading Welsh.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:The magic money tree will always bear fruit for pet projects. With Wales and Welsh nothing is likely to change if there is a feeling of downgrading Welsh.
Hmm, so making sure that Welsh is more obvious on roadsigns would be "downgrading it", would it? Run that one past me again, will you?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:The magic money tree will always bear fruit for pet projects. With Wales and Welsh nothing is likely to change if there is a feeling of downgrading Welsh.
Hmm, so making sure that Welsh is more obvious on roadsigns would be "downgrading it", would it? Run that one past me again, will you?
I am not saying that this is, but that if feels like that in Wales, it would become a difficult battle. Politics of language and identity.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:I am not saying that this is, but that if feels like that in Wales, it would become a difficult battle. Politics of language and identity.
Where it seems like the English-speaking Welsh - who remain a large majority, let's not forget - get to be made to feel looked down on in their own land. "Not properly Welsh", as it were. There could be trouble ahead ...
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:I am not saying that this is, but that if feels like that in Wales, it would become a difficult battle. Politics of language and identity.
Where it seems like the English-speaking Welsh - who remain a large majority, let's not forget - get to be made to feel looked down on in their own land. "Not properly Welsh", as it were. There could be trouble ahead ...
Done properly, state bilingualism is not that noticeable, which I think is the path Wales appears to be following.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:Done properly, state bilingualism is not that noticeable, which I think is the path Wales appears to be following.
*Trying* to follow. If I, as a non-resident Englishman have noticed the relegation of English in english-speaking areas, you can bet that the local anglophone Welsh will have noticed too!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:Done properly, state bilingualism is not that noticeable, which I think is the path Wales appears to be following.
*Trying* to follow. If I, as a non-resident Englishman have noticed the relegation of English in english-speaking areas, you can bet that the local anglophone Welsh will have noticed too!
Is it relegating English? Both remain fully official and are on all public signage.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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exiled wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:Done properly, state bilingualism is not that noticeable, which I think is the path Wales appears to be following.
*Trying* to follow. If I, as a non-resident Englishman have noticed the relegation of English in english-speaking areas, you can bet that the local anglophone Welsh will have noticed too!
Is it relegating English? Both remain fully official and are on all public signage.
I've done some highlighting. English-first will now be Welsh-first - and therefore English-second - even where very few of the local population use Welsh as their everyday language. It is certain to be seen as a relegation, in the terms of the politics of language and identity.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote: *Trying* to follow. If I, as a non-resident Englishman have noticed the relegation of English in english-speaking areas, you can bet that the local anglophone Welsh will have noticed too!
Is it relegating English? Both remain fully official and are on all public signage.
I've done some highlighting. English-first will now be Welsh-first - and therefore English-second - even where very few of the local population use Welsh as their everyday language. It is certain to be seen as a relegation, in the terms of the politics of language and identity.
It is a standardisation and a very desirable one. Local people rarely read their own signs in any case.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote: *Trying* to follow. If I, as a non-resident Englishman have noticed the relegation of English in english-speaking areas, you can bet that the local anglophone Welsh will have noticed too!
Is it relegating English? Both remain fully official and are on all public signage.
I've done some highlighting. English-first will now be Welsh-first - and therefore English-second - even where very few of the local population use Welsh as their everyday language. It is certain to be seen as a relegation, in the terms of the politics of language and identity.
From my experience the view that Welsh is the national language is quite common in Anglophone Wales. It might be uncomfortable for some and they might feel English is being downgraded, as Québec, Ireland and India, English is quite strong in resisting this. The majority of the media will have remain in English, ingredients on food, virtually every other aspect of modern life will remain in English only without the option IIRC from my uni days of 'gwelr ochr y fersiwn Gymraeg'
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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bothar wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote:
exiled wrote:
Is it relegating English? Both remain fully official and are on all public signage.
I've done some highlighting. English-first will now be Welsh-first - and therefore English-second - even where very few of the local population use Welsh as their everyday language. It is certain to be seen as a relegation, in the terms of the politics of language and identity.
It is a standardisation and a very desirable one. Local people rarely read their own signs in any case.
Well, if the signs are there for outsiders, then all the more reason to put English first, as most visitors will be Anglophone!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:
bothar wrote:
Chris Bertram wrote: I've done some highlighting. English-first will now be Welsh-first - and therefore English-second - even where very few of the local population use Welsh as their everyday language. It is certain to be seen as a relegation, in the terms of the politics of language and identity.
It is a standardisation and a very desirable one. Local people rarely read their own signs in any case.
Well, if the signs are there for outsiders, then all the more reason to put English first, as most visitors will be Anglophone!
You could say putting England's signs in French as well would help the visitor! :D :D Placing the signs in a consistent order will be more useful.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by AndyB »

With the exception of certain information signs and supplementary plates and most road markings, all Irish road signs have their legends in at least Irish, regardless of how unlikely you are to hear An Gaeilge spoken.

As a corollary, outside Gaeltacht areas all signs either contain a legend in English or are placed opposite a sign in English. Obvious exceptions are the former Kingstown, Queenstown and Maryborough, not to mention the former King's County and Queen's County.

Consistent signing of dual language signs is good for comprehensibility, and in my view, having Welsh on the signs is no more than recognition of heritage. It also teaches you something about the unusual digraphs Welsh uses (like dd = english th)

In the end, I don't think that English speakers in Gaelic-speaking parts of Scotland feel their language is being relegated by being placed under the Gaelic on their road signs. Perhaps more the language that hasn't gone away, y'know.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Ah yes, the Gaeltacht. Where the famously touristy town of Dingle in Co Kerry has found itself unable to sign the name by which almost everybody knows it, having to use only its Irish name of "An Daingean". Appeals to reasonable authority have fallen on deaf ears, so locals have resorted to spray painting the English name on road signs. This is not, I guess, what the pro-Irish language lobby really wanted.

Perhaps here English is the language that hasn't gone away, y'know.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Chris Bertram wrote:Ah yes, the Gaeltacht. Where the famously touristy town of Dingle in Co Kerry has found itself unable to sign the name by which almost everybody knows it, having to use only its Irish name of "An Daingean". Appeals to reasonable authority have fallen on deaf ears, so locals have resorted to spray painting the English name on road signs. This is not, I guess, what the pro-Irish language lobby really wanted.

Perhaps here English is the language that hasn't gone away, y'know.
In Ireland, the Gaeltacht is where rules if bilingualism are breached.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Gareth Thomas »

I'm bumping this topic due to my recent trip to South Wales, where I noticed quite a few new "Welsh first" signs in the Cardiff area. There were even a few on the M4, mostly the "For X follow Y" and the "[Name] services 1m" signs but there was this at Junction 25A.

Others I noticed were all the signs at the A4232/A48 junction at Culverhouse Cross (except those on the A4232 itself) and around Talbot Green on the A473. It feels very weird seeing "Caerdydd/Cardiff" and "Bont-faen/Cowbridge" instead of the other way around!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Vierwielen »

A few years ago, the UK Metric Association published a proposal for road sign upgrades.
Item 6 of the publication is of particular interest to Wales. It is totally language-independent.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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The issue with metrication is exactly the opposite of what is happening in Wales.
The document you linked to suggests that as people from abroad cannot understand our local system of distance measurement, then we should change, irrespective of the confusion it would cause to locals.
In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
This summer I saw several places in North Wales which had only ARAF painted on the road and no corresponding SLOW.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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ikcdab wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:50 In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Steven wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:58
ikcdab wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 07:50 In Wales, they are saying that the universally understood English should be relegated and replaced with the local variant to maintain currency of the local system.
Saying that the Welsh language is a "local variant" negates any further argument as it's both wrong and offensive.

It is also not being "relegated and replaced", merely standardised as to the order of the languages on signage.
Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
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