"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

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Gareth Thomas
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"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Gareth Thomas »

It was my understanding that whether English or Welsh is on top on the bilingual signs depends on which county or local authority you are in. Those in South Wales tend to have English on top whereas those in North and West Wales have Welsh on top.

Yet driving down the A4119 yesterday in the "English first" Rhondda Cynon Taf, I noticed a few signs have appeared where the Welsh is now on the top.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55230 ... 56!6m1!1e1

Is this a mistake or have the guidelines been changed?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Osthagen »

What really needs to be done in terms of Welsh-language signage is some kind of distinction between the Welsh text and the English.

We get this right with the Gaelic in the Highlands, with Gaelic text being displayed in a different colour to the English. Yellow on the green signs. Green on the white signs. Why can't Wales implement something similar?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Bomag »

Gareth Thomas wrote:It was my understanding that whether English or Welsh is on top on the bilingual signs depends on which county or local authority you are in. Those in South Wales tend to have English on top whereas those in North and West Wales have Welsh on top.

Yet driving down the A4119 yesterday in the "English first" Rhondda Cynon Taf, I noticed a few signs have appeared where the Welsh is now on the top.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.55230 ... 56!6m1!1e1

Is this a mistake or have the guidelines been changed?
Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Octaviadriver »

A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.

I've noticed that VMSs are in either English or Welsh and they usually alternate between the two languages as they can't fit both on one sign. If there are any important messages and they come up first in Welsh on roads such as the M4 from the Severn Bridge to Cardiff, I'm sure there'll only be a small minority who'll understand them and take the necessary action if there's a road closed, accident, etc.

I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Bryn666 »

The lack of distinction between the languages really doesn't help.

At least it will be consistent if welsh is on top. Would have preferred colour distinction or a different typeface.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by mikehindsonevans »

... just so long as the "green paint" and "red paint" brigades do not resurface!
When we visited South Wales in the late 1960s (following the opening of the Severn Bridge and the subsequent spread westwards of the M4), we noticed that opposing language groups were spraying out the "other" language translation on road signs. Very immature and not very helpful!

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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bomag wrote:Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.
Stuff local preference as well. Still, there'd been a gradual spread of "Welsh first" even in areas where English was clearly the majority language. We drove through Powys in the early 90's, and at that stage it was English priority. Repeating the journey about 15 years later it was the other way round. Powys hadn't become a majority Welsh-speaking area during that time (there are pockets here and there, but no more), so why the change?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by orudge »

Flintshire was always English first, but I seem to recall seeing a few Welsh first signs when I visited in April.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by KeithW »

It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by M4Simon »

KeithW wrote:It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
I grew up in Swansea, and moved away 25 years ago. Back in the 80s there was one Welsh language secondary school in West Glam. Today there are at least 3 in the Swansea half of the old county. Previously, you would rarely hear welsh spoken in the city, now it is commonly heard in the city centre.

I've had emails from Cardiff City Council and the disclaimer includes a statement to the effect that if you contact the council in welsh you'll get a response in Welsh and it won't be delayed as a result.

There is no doubt that Welsh is thriving, and as a non-Welsh speaker, I welcome this. I have no issue with putting both languages on signs, Welsh first, in the same font, or in different fonts. The only question I have regarding the latter is which font or colour should be used for the English names?
:P

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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Chris Bertram »

KeithW wrote:It was quite surprising to see Welsh above English on signs in southern Pembrokeshire given that it has been known as 'Little England Beyond Wales' for centuries. My old neighbour Les who is from Pembroke said he never met a welsh speaker until he went to Harlech Castle and he like many locals has no trace of a Welsh accent.
The local accent south of the Landsker Line is said to have more in common with SW England than the adjacent parts of Wales. But people move around, and this may not be so true anymore.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by RichardA626 »

I remember on one of my visits to Wales someone mentioning Welsh being used a lot more in schools since the 1980s.

He hadn't had any lessons in it when we was at school in the 1960s-70s, but his children did.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by A9NWIL »

Octaviadriver wrote:A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.

I've noticed that VMSs are in either English or Welsh and they usually alternate between the two languages as they can't fit both on one sign. If there are any important messages and they come up first in Welsh on roads such as the M4 from the Severn Bridge to Cardiff, I'm sure there'll only be a small minority who'll understand them and take the necessary action if there's a road closed, accident, etc.

I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
I think if the Welsh want the VMSs to have Welsh on then they should erect a double VMS (two next to each other) at each point they have one, especially on major routes like the M4 which will see plenty of non-Welsh people using them!
They can then have one in English and one in Welsh.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Owain »

Octaviadriver wrote:A couple of people from Lithuania that have a good knowledge of English that SWMBO knows (they live in Lithuania and they didn't visit us) were on a visit to the UK for a week and hired a car. They were visiting relatives in the Liverpool area and went over the border into Wales for a few miles without realising anything was different. When they saw the bilingual signs, they were very confused as to what they were for and what they were saying. After they got home, SWMBO was talking to them on Skype and explained about Wales having its own language.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by c2R »

lotrjw wrote:I think if the Welsh want the VMSs to have Welsh on then they should erect a double VMS (two next to each other) at each point they have one, especially on major routes like the M4 which will see plenty of non-Welsh people using them!
They can then have one in English and one in Welsh.
I agree with this - happy for consistent ordering with Welsh first but really find it difficult when VMS constantly flicks between languages - to fast and you can't read it; too slow and you're past it before it changes to English...
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Mark Hewitt »

Octaviadriver wrote: I live in Wales, I don't speak the language, but I'm happy for signs to be bilingual if they're used with common sense and not prioritised where few people understand them.
https://www.duolingo.com/course/cy/en/L ... lsh-Online :D
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Mark Hewitt »

c2R wrote: I agree with this - happy for consistent ordering with Welsh first but really find it difficult when VMS constantly flicks between languages - to fast and you can't read it; too slow and you're past it before it changes to English...
Any sort of message sign be it on a motorway, or a bus or doctors surgery etc 'grinds my gears' when it flips between two things especially if they are two halves of the same message. Either fit the entire message on one screen, or don't bother.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by nowster »

Not good. Doesn't understand Gog Welsh and is rather rigid. The pronunciation is a little off, too, giving "cath" (cat) a long vowel sound, making it sound more like "gardd" (garden).
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by Mark Hewitt »

nowster wrote:
Not good. Doesn't understand Gog Welsh and is rather rigid. The pronunciation is a little off, too, giving "cath" (cat) a long vowel sound, making it sound more like "gardd" (garden).
Must admit I haven't looked at it myself. But certainly Duolingo has a reputation for a being a good free of charge start in learning, but it's just a start - perhaps this needs to be in learning languages!
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales

Post by exiled »

Chris Bertram wrote:
Bomag wrote:Yes guidelines have been changed, its Welsh first and stuff road user comprehension levels.
Stuff local preference as well. Still, there'd been a gradual spread of "Welsh first" even in areas where English was clearly the majority language. We drove through Powys in the early 90's, and at that stage it was English priority. Repeating the journey about 15 years later it was the other way round. Powys hadn't become a majority Welsh-speaking area during that time (there are pockets here and there, but no more), so why the change?
Language policy is devolved to the Welsh Assembly, improving the position of Welsh has been one of the Welsh Assembly and Welsh Government's goals since devolution.

In terms of comprehension this actually improves it, as there will be one system Welsh first across Wales. The key point points are consistency and equality with bilingual signing.
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