It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.exiled wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:44Complaints from those who do not want Welsh to be on the signs, have S4C as a TV station, ie complaints about Welsh existing.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 16:41These complainants, were they all English? Or were they local Welsh people unconvinced of the need for Welsh on the signs in places where hardly anyone knew the language, on various grounds including the cost of much larger signs? It remains the case that the overwhelming majority of Welsh people have English as their first language, but this really doesn't make them any less Welsh than the bards who preside over the National Eisteddfod.
"Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The opinion the residents of England is immaterial here, we don't get a say or any kind of vote on the matter. What matters is the feeling of the residents of the various parts of Wales, and they are the Welsh, whether they speak that language or not. Some of them feel that they have been railroaded into having a language they don't speak ahead of one that they do in their part of Wales where they are in the majority. Are they wrong to feel that way?exiled wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:22It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
By and large there appears to be little objection to bilingual signage in Wales, it is now a fact of life. Welsh is an official language of the whole of Wales, not just the bits of Wales it is spoken in. Where there is objection is not that there is Welsh on the signs, it is that Welsh exists. Same in Scotland for a lot of the objections over Gaelic.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:30The opinion the residents of England is immaterial here, we don't get a say or any kind of vote on the matter. What matters is the feeling of the residents of the various parts of Wales, and they are the Welsh, whether they speak that language or not. Some of them feel that they have been railroaded into having a language they don't speak ahead of one that they do in their part of Wales where they are in the majority. Are they wrong to feel that way?exiled wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:22It was a mixture of people, as in deed there is a mixture of those complaining of the signs going up in Scotland with Gaelic on them. But it comes down to the same thing, not wanting the minority languages to exist. That there are a huge number of people who sneer at the existence of Welsh in England means that 'English exceptionalism' cannot be ruled out as a reason they do not want Welsh language road signs or S4C to exist.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 I understand what they didn't want. But who were they, these refuseniks? English incomers, or native Welsh people. If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Except the people complaining about it on this thread are English if I'm not mistaken...Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
It's up to the Welsh as to how it goes. I do object to the idea that it's somehow all the fault of the English, when Wales has full devolved power over this matter, legal as well as administrative.Steven wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:39Except the people complaining about it on this thread are English if I'm not mistaken...Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:15 If the latter, I think it rather puts the "English exceptionalism" line firmly to bed.
Last edited by Chris Bertram on Tue Sep 14, 2021 09:27, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
This is probably how it is; it's not a big enough issue to sway many votes, but not everyone is bought into it. So be it.crb11 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 17:03 If my in-laws are representative, the feeling of Welsh people in such areas ranges from "that's nice to have as a reflection of our heritage" to "a bit of a waste of money if you ask me" but feelings aren't strong enough on either side for it to be an issue they'd bother complaining to anyone about. (It only came up as a topic of conversation at my brother's wedding as the bilingual signs in the area had started going up shortly beforehand.)
I'm sure we have some South Walian posters on this forum. How do they feel?
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I'm not convinced that lack of differentiation between the names (colour or italics or whatever), is a barrier to a motorist's navigation and safety.Bryn666 wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:19I have been an advocate for adopting colour differential on Welsh signs for years but with the language parity act anything that lets either language look more important is a problem. This is why the annoying chop and change of which went first used to happen - it was quite a battle to get Welsh first agreed, but I'd simply point out the country is Wales so the native language - Welsh - should be first. English was an imposition, even if everyone speaks it, so there's an obvious cultural reason for Welsh first.c2R wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 13:13I don't think it matters,a s long as it is standardised. Having the languages move position on signs as to which is the most dominant in a particular area isn't helpful.Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Sep 13, 2021 09:59 Which is fine in theory, but which should go first? Logic says the language of the majority, which is English, but where nationalistic factors come into play, logic is often turned on its head.
Similarly, I think it would be preferable if there was consistency between Welsh and Scottish implementations - I personally find the Scottish signage better as I find colour is more helpful in determining the language while I'm driving - but that's just personal preference.
The other question is what to do when there is no translation, e.g. with Port Laoise or Dun Laoghaire - do you show the single item twice, pointlessly, or do you try and just show it once - which leads to the question - Is Port Laoise more important than Dublin because its bigger on the sign? https://www.google.com/maps/@52.8666414 ... 312!8i6656
With town names - long term you just drop the name you don't want. Nobody says Maryborough now do they?
People don't lose their minds because we no longer call the town I'm in "Bolton-le-Moors" or "Great Bolton" any more.
If I want to travel to, say, Devizes, I won't be interested in Pewsey or Marlborough or Swindon, so my eye will be drawn to look for the shape of the word Devizes on the sign and ignore the unwanted information.
I don't see why it would be any different if, in this example, I was travelling to Cardiff and the other three destinations on the sign were Caerdydd, Bridgend and Pen-y-bont.
I don't need to know that two of those are Welsh names for the same English placenames on the sign; I can just ignore them as of no consequence to me.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The B888, although single track, is fast and fun. Traffic is light and the sight lines are excellent. However, I took a wrong turn due to this bilingual Gaelic sign. There was no advance direction sign. The sign at the junction is fairly small with English in a smaller font than Gaelic. My Gaelic is limited. The Gaelic places names wrap onto a second line. I was expecting to carry straight on but on reaching the junction at the last moment I spotted the Gaelic for Lochboisdale (not realising the line above contained the Gaelic for South) and turned up the road and ended up on the wrong side of the loch.
Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Mixed x-heights is the worst system for this very reason and away from the Hebrides it is widely avoided.swissferry wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 22:26 The B888, although single track, is fast and fun. Traffic is light and the sight lines are excellent. However, I took a wrong turn due to this bilingual Gaelic sign. There was no advance direction sign. The sign at the junction is fairly small with English in a smaller font than Gaelic. My Gaelic is limited. The Gaelic places names wrap onto a second line. I was expecting to carry straight on but on reaching the junction at the last moment I spotted the Gaelic for Lochboisdale (not realising the line above contained the Gaelic for South) and turned up the road and ended up on the wrong side of the loch.
Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The navigation problem is partly caused by poor maps, which do not have the local language name on the map or if they do it is totally inconsistent, Google Maps suggests that Taobh a' Deas Loch Baghasdail and South Lochboisdale are different neighbouring places. In Irish Gaeltacht places, which have signs only in Irish nowadays, many maps lack this information.swissferry wrote: ↑Tue Sep 14, 2021 22:26 Generally I'm in favour of bilingual signs for cultural reasons. Also having place names in different languages often highlights their etymon which can be interesting. I don't mind signs, especially place names, only appearing in a local language even if it is spoken by a minority. Signs however need to be clear. This one could have been clearer if it was bigger, wider or normally formatted. An ADS would have been nice but probably excessive for such a road. Occasionally there may be a case for monolingual signs if it improves clarity.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
This layout by Comhairle nan Eileann Siar de facto makes those signs Gaelic only as the English is so small it renders it superfluous at anything but slow speeds. Very similar to the supermarket aisle signs in Québec where at least you are at walking speed.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.ajuk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
Doesn't matter if there are few monoglot Welsh speakers over the age of 5. Both languages are co-official, and removing one because 'everyone speaks the other' is bad practice. God knows how Brits cope in NL or France.Osthagen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 21:04I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.ajuk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
What would help and seems to be being used are either two separate signs, one Welsh one English, or a sign that can carry both at the same time.
Both languages are co-official, and you have the Welsh on the signs in SE Wales so that English is on the signs in Ceredigion, Gwynedd, and Ynys Mon.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
The issue is not the local residents, who do not need directional signs. The issue is whether the proper name of their place will be made available to visitors or whether the visitors will only be exposed to pidgin which will eventually drive out the original name.
Electronic signs providing dynamic information are a different issue. As far as possible such signs should have minimum text in any language, the Welsh speakers might understand English well but the Bulgarian truck driver will not. There is a case for a very limited vocabulary in English only here, but mostly symbols.ajuk wrote:The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
I would maintain bilingual for such things as "welcome to" signs and place names.Osthagen wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 21:04I'm confident that Welsh speakers who speak only Welsh, or monoglot Welsh speakers, are confined to the history books. The last monoglot Irish Gaelic speaker died aged in his 80s around the turn of the Millennium, so his Welsh counterpart is unlikely to have been far behind.ajuk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 20:50 It would be easier if they just made the font or the colour slightly different, or just dropped the pretence that some of them can't read English and spend more money cleaning and maintaining signs.
The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
You could certainly argue, in defense of featuring the Welsh language in areas such as electronic signage, that it helps people who know the Welsh language better than English, but in SW that demographic is near non-existent.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who assume that being anti-Welsh signs is akin to being against the Welsh language, and a lot of people are for that reason, I'm not one of them, I'm happy for the Welsh to preserve their language.
Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
So use the language as just a tourist bauble. Well, Luxembourg and Malta have learnt that does not work. If you want the languages to be co-official and equal in use, both have to be on the signs, which is the policy in Wales. Using the local language as a bauble is almost always just a sop to say 'see, we recognise it' whilst trying to kill it off, as France has done with Breton, Occitan, Alsatian, and others.ajuk wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 23:33 I would maintain bilingual for such things as "welcome to" signs and place names.
I'm sure there are a lot of people who assume that being anti-Welsh signs is akin to being against the Welsh language, and a lot of people are for that reason, I'm not one of them, I'm happy for the Welsh to preserve their language.
Languages are best served by being used, and by being on the metal means Welsh is better served than a lot of other minority languages.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
There is a fighting chance that your Bulgarian truck driver might understand some English. There is next to no chance of them understanding any Welsh.bothar wrote: ↑Wed Sep 15, 2021 22:14The issue is not the local residents, who do not need directional signs. The issue is whether the proper name of their place will be made available to visitors or whether the visitors will only be exposed to pidgin which will eventually drive out the original name.Electronic signs providing dynamic information are a different issue. As far as possible such signs should have minimum text in any language, the Welsh speakers might understand English well but the Bulgarian truck driver will not. There is a case for a very limited vocabulary in English only here, but mostly symbols.ajuk wrote:The electronic signs on motorways are the worst, often they can convey information that is quite important but by insisting they also must also be bilingual it means they're effectiveness at conveying messages is reduced about 45% from optimal, since only about 10% of those reading it can speak Welsh of whom close to 100% can also speak English anyway.
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Re: "Welsh first" bilingual signs in South Wales
This appears to me to be a projection of English cultural imperialism. We should let the Welsh use their own language as they see fit and publications that include that country should adapt.
OS maps and atlases have bilingual names printed where there is reasonable disparity such as Mold (even Wrexham) - it is a shame that Google apparently does not, even though it does recognise if you type in e.g. Abertawe to Yr Wyddgrug or Wrecsam.
A lorry driver may have similarly travelled through France on his way to England and then Wales.
Are we suggesting, for instance, that France should have bilingual VMS signs because terms such as
"pneus sous gonfles"
"bouchon"
"ralentir"
each of which I have seen displayed and have an important safety context, are not understood by people not fluent in French?
OS maps and atlases have bilingual names printed where there is reasonable disparity such as Mold (even Wrexham) - it is a shame that Google apparently does not, even though it does recognise if you type in e.g. Abertawe to Yr Wyddgrug or Wrecsam.
A lorry driver may have similarly travelled through France on his way to England and then Wales.
Are we suggesting, for instance, that France should have bilingual VMS signs because terms such as
"pneus sous gonfles"
"bouchon"
"ralentir"
each of which I have seen displayed and have an important safety context, are not understood by people not fluent in French?