M23 junctions 8 to 10: smart motorway

[Johnathan404]

I understand (through vague references in Highways England leaflets) that the left turns at J9 are getting a significant upgrade. Is there any evidence of this?

I know most people don't agree with Highways England's theory that hard shoulders are a bad idea, and I know the timekeeping has been shonky, but with the significant widening at the M25 exit, the new emergency exits and the possible J9 works, they've been quite thorough with what seemed like a rather mundane project.

[jervi]

I understand (through vague references in Highways England leaflets) that the left turns at J9 are getting a significant upgrade. Is there any evidence of this?

I know most people don't agree with Highways England's theory that hard shoulders are a bad idea, and I know the timekeeping has been shonky, but with the significant widening at the M25 exit, the new emergency exits and the possible J9 works, they've been quite thorough with what seemed like a rather mundane project.

So Junction 9 is really odd, since you can only go west at the roundabout. I heard something about left turns as well at J9. I'd presume it is entry to the Northbound slip road, so you don't have to pointlessly wait at the lights for 0 vehicles to enter the Northbound slip road (except some fool who accidently took the wrong exit). Also they have to adjust for three lanes coming off the roundabout onto the M23 spur (Westbound).
TBH, they haven't really widened the M23/M25 diverge that much, since the M23 through route was built as a D3M and the slip roads off were 2 wide lanes+HS. So they are really just putting 4 lanes in where an old 2 wide lanes+HS was.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.25903 ... 312!8i6656

[Micro The Maniac]

Again, more on RCS, there are very few on the M23 (maybe because it has only a handful of junctions), however at 3:40 you can see the ONLY RCS on the Northbound section of the smart motorway. It has four destinations all under the M23; London, Heathrow, Sevenoaks & Guildford. ... Guildford, what's that all about, A3 or M3 isn't even listed under M25 (only M4 & M1 is)! Rant over.

You can (sort of) understand Guildford being signposted before A264 at J11, to discourage people using A264/A281 but thereafter? No sense

[Stevie D]

You can (sort of) understand Guildford being signposted before A264 at J11, to discourage people using A264/A281 but thereafter? No sense

If a place is shown on an advance direction sign then it must be shown on every subsequent sign until it is reached, unless a particular sign is overloaded and it is shunted onto a second sign, like "For Guildford follow Heathrow (M25)".

[M5Lenzar]

With all this work being done, could the time be right to fix the junction numbers?

[jervi]

You can (sort of) understand Guildford being signposted before A264 at J11, to discourage people using A264/A281 but thereafter? No sense

If a place is shown on an advance direction sign then it must be shown on every subsequent sign until it is reached, unless a particular sign is overloaded and it is shunted onto a second sign, like "For Guildford follow Heathrow (M25)".

Do those rules also apply for RCS?

I could understand Sevenoaks potentially being signed when the M23 was first opened (as the M25/A25 headed towards Sevenoaks), however should of changed to say Dartford (or Dartford Crossing) when the M25 was completed around to Dartford. At that point superseding any Sevenoaks signs on the M23. Unfortunately, I am far too young to know what the original signs on the M23 were, so cannot in anyway confirm this.

But Guildford on the other hand is an odd choice. Sussex is lacking East-West routes, except the A27 & M25 leaving a large gap of below-par A&B roads in between. If driving a HVG, I'd suggest using the M23 -> M25 - > A3 if going from say Crawley to Guildford, but would suggest a large variety of combinations of below-par A&B roads if in a car as it would take about the same time, but half the miles.

I might write to HE/Kier to see what the justification is for those destinations on that sign are.

With all this work being done, could the time be right to fix the junction numbers?

There's no real need. The numbers aren't hurting anyone and people know the junctions for their numbers. The fact that it starts at J7 reminds people of the history of the motorway and aspiration of the ringways scheme, which makes the motorway all the more interesting.

[Stevie D]

If a place is shown on an advance direction sign then it must be shown on every subsequent sign until it is reached, unless a particular sign is overloaded and it is shunted onto a second sign, like "For Guildford follow Heathrow (M25)".

Do those rules also apply for RCS?

I would expect that once a destination has appeared on an RCS, it should appear on every subsequent RCS, but not necessarily on every subsequent ADS if it is along the main road straight ahead.

I could understand Sevenoaks potentially being signed when the M23 was first opened (as the M25/A25 headed towards Sevenoaks), however should of changed to say Dartford (or Dartford Crossing) when the M25 was completed around to Dartford. At that point superseding any Sevenoaks signs on the M23. Unfortunately, I am far too young to know what the original signs on the M23 were, so cannot in anyway confirm this.

But Guildford on the other hand is an odd choice. Sussex is lacking East-West routes, except the A27 & M25 leaving a large gap of below-par A&B roads in between. If driving a HVG, I'd suggest using the M23 -> M25 - > A3 if going from say Crawley to Guildford, but would suggest a large variety of combinations of below-par A&B roads if in a car as it would take about the same time, but half the miles.

I've just punched into Google asking for a route from A23 south of Crawley to Guildford, and it suggested A264/A281, taking 46 minutes (28 miles), with a couple of alternatives taking 10 minutes longer and starting via Horsham and Dorking. It didn't offer M23/M25/A3 as a suggestion. Forcing it onto that route, it comes in at 45 minutes (41 miles) – so Google doesn't think that going 50% further out of your way is worth it to save 1 minute. But I can see why the highways authorities would want to direct traffic onto that route rather than lower standard cross-country route. That said, I would be surprised if there was enough traffic heading for Guildford coming up the northbound A23 there to worry about what the signs said!

[Johnathan404]

With all this work being done, could the time be right to fix the junction numbers?

This would cause confusion to a lot of people trying to find Gatwick Airport, and all of the hotels and car parks positioned along the M23 to cater for Gatwick. What would the benefit be, beyond making Sabristi a little bit happier?

[jervi]

I've just punched into Google asking for a route from A23 south of Crawley to Guildford, and it suggested A264/A281, taking 46 minutes (28 miles), with a couple of alternatives taking 10 minutes longer and starting via Horsham and Dorking. It didn't offer M23/M25/A3 as a suggestion. Forcing it onto that route, it comes in at 45 minutes (41 miles) – so Google doesn't think that going 50% further out of your way is worth it to save 1 minute. But I can see why the highways authorities would want to direct traffic onto that route rather than lower standard cross-country route. That said, I would be surprised if there was enough traffic heading for Guildford coming up the northbound A23 there to worry about what the signs said!

That is true today. However on a typical working day, it normally suggests the M23-M25-A3, although I always take the country roads route.

[Chris5156]

With all this work being done, could the time be right to fix the junction numbers?

This would cause confusion to a lot of people trying to find Gatwick Airport, and all of the hotels and car parks positioned along the M23 to cater for Gatwick. What would the benefit be, beyond making Sabristi a little bit happier?

That question's always asked when renumbering junctions comes up, and in response I would say that the happiness of Sabristi is not valued highly enough by the people in charge of numbering junctions

[jervi]

With all this work being done, could the time be right to fix the junction numbers?

This would cause confusion to a lot of people trying to find Gatwick Airport, and all of the hotels and car parks positioned along the M23 to cater for Gatwick. What would the benefit be, beyond making Sabristi a little bit happier?

That question's always asked when renumbering junctions comes up, and in response I would say that the happiness of Sabristi is not valued highly enough by the people in charge of numbering junctions

Although, renumbering the M23 shouldn't cause too many issues when compared to other motorways. Since the M23 starts at Junction 7 and has 6 junctions (plus the spur) it means that you could renumber all the junctions without reusing any already existing numbers.
J7 -> J1
J8 -> J2
J9 -> J3
J9a -> J3a
J10 -> J4
J10a -> J5
J11 -> J6

[Peter Freeman]

Junction numbers 1-5 should be held in reserve just in case a change-of-mind gets the tunnel built …

[thatapanydude]

Junction numbers 1-5 should be held in reserve just in case a change-of-mind gets the tunnel built …

Here here!!

[M5Lenzar]

Although, renumbering the M23 shouldn't cause too many issues when compared to other motorways. Since the M23 starts at Junction 7 and has 6 junctions (plus the spur) it means that you could renumber all the junctions without reusing any already existing numbers.
J7 -> J1
J8 -> J2
J9 -> J3
J9a -> J3a
J10 -> J4
J10a -> J5
J11 -> J6

I wouldn't even give J9a its own number. J9 has only a blank spur to a second roundabout. It's all J9.

[Vierwielen]

There's a good reason why HE aren't paying to improve J9, which is that Gatwick want to
Gatwick detail - Copy.PNG
The wider highway plan:
Gatwick - Copy.PNG
This is from the 2014 Arup report that was part of Gatwick's second runway submission. The 'Main Highway' cost is £353m, broken down as A23 - £120m, M23 Junction 9 improvements - £95m, North Terminal access - £78m, South Terminal/New Terminal access - £60m (link).

What will they call the New Terminal - the "Deep South Terminal"?

[Vierwielen]

Junction numbers 1-5 should be held in reserve just in case a change-of-mind gets the tunnel built …

[jervi]

https://www.midsussextimes.co.uk/news/p ... fgp9OBuyPo
4th Lane is now open. (along with ERAs)
They are continuing works to finish installing signs and technology.
50 MPH speed limit remains in place (along with night closures) until everything is ready to be fully opened. Unfortunately, it seems I won't be able to give it a drive until Covid clears

[Johnathan404]

https://www.midsussextimes.co.uk/news/p ... fgp9OBuyPo

"Works to convert the M23 near Gatwick Airport into a £164 million ‘smart motorway’ have taken another step forward"

At least try to make it sound like you haven't merely copy-and-pasted Highways England's press release.

[A303Chris]

I went through this today , both ways and all four lanes both ways are open, but still at SPECS controlled 50mph. All cones have been removed, except at J10 northbound off slip which is closed.

The reason being apart for 3 gantries approaching the M25 none of them have any VMS or Speed limit roundels on them. The MS4 rigs are missing the signs as well. All the road signage is up however approaching junctions.

Approaching the M25 N/B is fun. It’s signed as follows.

Lane 1 M25 Heathrow
Lane 2 M25 Heathrow / Dartford
Lane 3 M25 Dartford / M23 London
Lane 4 M23 London

It’s a double decked sign with M25 Heathrow over lanes 1/2 and M23 London over lanes 3/4 on the lower level on two sign boards with a high sign board for M25 Dartford Straddling the the two lower signs. All three signs have down arrows as well.

The surfacing is only lanes one and four both ways, with the middle left from before the works began. It looks messy, at least if the M4 all lanes are being resurfaced.
It looks like smart motorways On the cheap, which is ironic given they are motorway widening on the cheap.

[jervi]

I went through this today , both ways and all four lanes both ways are open, but still at SPECS controlled 50mph. All cones have been removed, except at J10 northbound off slip which is closed.

The reason being apart for 3 gantries approaching the M25 none of them have any VMS or Speed limit roundels on them. The MS4 rigs are missing the signs as well. All the road signage is up however approaching junctions.

Approaching the M25 N/B is fun. It’s signed as follows.

Lane 1 M25 Heathrow
Lane 2 M25 Heathrow / Dartford
Lane 3 M25 Dartford / M23 London
Lane 4 M23 Dartford

It’s a double decked sign with M25 Heathrow over lanes 1/2 and M23 London over lanes 3/4 on the lower level on two sign boards with a high sign board for M25 Dartford Straddling the the two lower signs. All three signs have down arrows as well.

The surfacing is only lanes one and four both ways, with the middle left from before the works began. It looks messy, at least if the M4 all lanes are being resurfaced.
It looks like smart motorways On the cheap, which is ironic given they are motorway widening on the cheap.

Apparently former lanes 1 & 2 (now 2&3) had over 15 years life expectancy left on them when they started works, so they opted to keep them as they are. But as you probably noticed, the DLS and ERA signage certainly isn't on the cheap.

I'm driving North along it tomorrow (well today now) from J10a to J8, I'll be recording it on my go pro and post it on here.