Odd Junction on A1
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- Patrick Harper
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Odd Junction on A1
May I draw your attention to this junction on the A1. It was seemingly decided that the primary use of this was going to be for local traffic, barred from crossing the road in the central reservation, to perform a u-turn here into the desired direction. So southbound, the turn-off is signposted The NORTH, and northbound, the turn-off is signposted for London, with 'A1' signposted in all directions.
The catch is that the entire thing is not the A1, as implied from the signs, they are unclassified roads managed by Beds CC, evidenced by the county's current lighting spec being employed here. But there's more. It is normal for local destinations to be shown on signs with a white backing, alongside green-backed signs for primary destinations. Indeed, there are green-backed signs suggesting this route is part of the A1, after all, if what is implied from the mainline signs is correct, that would make sense. But there are also white-backed signs showing primary destinations, that would indicate that the user is not on the A1 and is merely on a non-related road on the approach to the A1.
So the question is this, should the mainline signs be maintained whilst the whole thing comes under HE's control and the junction signs corrected, or should the mainline signs be altered to show only local destinations (such as the fairly new development to the east) and remove the 'A1' designation on the turn-off? As far as I can tell those are the only correct options, though I can't see anything changing in the flesh, anytime soon.
The catch is that the entire thing is not the A1, as implied from the signs, they are unclassified roads managed by Beds CC, evidenced by the county's current lighting spec being employed here. But there's more. It is normal for local destinations to be shown on signs with a white backing, alongside green-backed signs for primary destinations. Indeed, there are green-backed signs suggesting this route is part of the A1, after all, if what is implied from the mainline signs is correct, that would make sense. But there are also white-backed signs showing primary destinations, that would indicate that the user is not on the A1 and is merely on a non-related road on the approach to the A1.
So the question is this, should the mainline signs be maintained whilst the whole thing comes under HE's control and the junction signs corrected, or should the mainline signs be altered to show only local destinations (such as the fairly new development to the east) and remove the 'A1' designation on the turn-off? As far as I can tell those are the only correct options, though I can't see anything changing in the flesh, anytime soon.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Not really addressing the questions raised by the OP, but this looks like one of those junctions where they decided to take advantage of a former railway bridge.
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
Thanks for spotting this. At a slight tangent - is this the bit of the "East-West railway line" which is "obstructed by development in the Sandy area"? If so, it explains the problems with completing the re-instatement of the Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge.wrinkly wrote:Not really addressing the questions raised by the OP, but this looks like one of those junctions where they decided to take advantage of a former railway bridge.
Mike Hindson-Evans.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Never argue with a conspiracy theorist.
They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Yes, though there are also other blockages nearer Cambridge.mikehindsonevans wrote:is this the bit of the "East-West railway line" which is "obstructed by development in the Sandy area"? If so, it explains the problems with completing the re-instatement of the Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge.
- Chris Bertram
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
Yes, that's it. A diversionary route would be required here, probably to the north of Sandy. A similar situation exists at Potton, and there's also the mobile radio telescope nearer to Cambridge.mikehindsonevans wrote:Thanks for spotting this. At a slight tangent - is this the bit of the "East-West railway line" which is "obstructed by development in the Sandy area"? If so, it explains the problems with completing the re-instatement of the Varsity Line between Oxford and Cambridge.wrinkly wrote:Not really addressing the questions raised by the OP, but this looks like one of those junctions where they decided to take advantage of a former railway bridge.
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
This is part of the Baldock to Brampton section of the A1 that was supposed to be upgraded offline in 1994 along with the Black Cat so what you are seeing is a temporary lashup that became permanent - just like the multiple Black cat upgrades in fact.
As others have mentioned the line is indeed part of the old varsity line. The old route joined the ECML into Sandy more or less where the Sandy Lane Business Park is went through Sandy Station and then left the ECML south of Sandy and headed to Potton, Gamlingay and Lords Bridge entering Cambridge through the middle of what is now the Trumpington Park and Ride site
As others have mentioned the line is indeed part of the old varsity line. The old route joined the ECML into Sandy more or less where the Sandy Lane Business Park is went through Sandy Station and then left the ECML south of Sandy and headed to Potton, Gamlingay and Lords Bridge entering Cambridge through the middle of what is now the Trumpington Park and Ride site
Re: Odd Junction on A1
There is also the minor problem that the Cambridge end ran through the Trumpington Park and Ride and the line the other side of that is used by the guided busway while in Bedford there is now a retail park and leisure centre in the way. This was never a satisfactory line for high speed running with much of it being single track with tight curves and several at level crossings. A more direct line south of Bedford following the line of the A428 might be a better long term option. Of course the old railway that from ran from the Histon area into Cambridge is now part the busway. That said I have doubts about how much extra traffic you could really run in to Cambridge station given how busy the line is these days.Chris Bertram wrote: Yes, that's it. A diversionary route would be required here, probably to the north of Sandy. A similar situation exists at Potton, and there's also the mobile radio telescope nearer to Cambridge.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Bearing in mind nearer MK the railway no longer calls at the main station (as that role is now filled by MK Central), I wonder if a similar arrangement would work in Cambridge??KeithW wrote:There is also the minor problem that the Cambridge end ran through the Trumpington Park and Ride and the line the other side of that is used by the guided busway while in Bedford there is now a retail park and leisure centre in the way. This was never a satisfactory line for high speed running with much of it being single track with tight curves and several at level crossings. A more direct line south of Bedford following the line of the A428 might be a better long term option. Of course the old railway that from ran from the Histon area into Cambridge is now part the busway. That said I have doubts about how much extra traffic you could really run in to Cambridge station given how busy the line is these days.Chris Bertram wrote: Yes, that's it. A diversionary route would be required here, probably to the north of Sandy. A similar situation exists at Potton, and there's also the mobile radio telescope nearer to Cambridge.
Maybe a ‘Cambridge South’ station can be built - which would help staff, patients, and visitors to Addenbrookes/the health Campus.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
This looks entirely likely - the government seems keen on the idea so the initial planning stages will be underway soon.Berk wrote:
Maybe a ‘Cambridge South’ station can be built - which would help staff, patients, and visitors to Addenbrookes/the health Campus.
[real name Colin]
Re: Odd Junction on A1
This junction unnerved me the first time I drove up that bit of the A1. It was driving rain so visibility was poor. I saw a big sign saying London, Stevenage A1 and thought "did I take a wrong turn at the last roundabout?"
I had reasonable faith in where I was going, and it turned out I was heading up the A1 after all. (Not so many speed limits in those days )
I had reasonable faith in where I was going, and it turned out I was heading up the A1 after all. (Not so many speed limits in those days )
Re: Odd Junction on A1
What's wrong with signing A1 in opposite directions?
It did confuse me when I drove that way last year and wondered why they'd need to sign London. Looking at the area in more detail when I got home suggests I've come to the same conclusion as Paianni as to why it exists.
It did confuse me when I drove that way last year and wondered why they'd need to sign London. Looking at the area in more detail when I got home suggests I've come to the same conclusion as Paianni as to why it exists.
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- Patrick Harper
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
Because it suggests that the A1 continues along the sliproads under the A1 proper, when it obviously doesn't. Same problem with the green-backed signs on the sliproads. Someone has to make up their mind.vlad wrote:What's wrong with signing A1 in opposite directions?
It did confuse me when I drove that way last year and wondered why they'd need to sign London. Looking at the area in more detail when I got home suggests I've come to the same conclusion as Paianni as to why it exists.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
The signing of this junction from the A1 itself does seem odd at first. Eventually you realise that the northbound carriageway going through Sandy passes various business premises and there are a couple of car dealers just to the north of the town on the southbound. Without this signing, it is likely that many people who visit these places and want to head back from whence they came would end up taking a detour via the overbridge just south of Tempsford or the roundabout with the A603 and B1042 respectively. The latter being liable to queue at peak times.
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
The preferred route corridor is Bedford->Sandy->Cambridge, but there are as yet no route options. I would prefer to see Bedford->Hitchin->Cambridge on cost grounds as the line from Hitchin to Cambridge is already there.Chris Bertram wrote: Yes, that's it. A diversionary route would be required here, probably to the north of Sandy. A similar situation exists at Potton, and there's also the mobile radio telescope nearer to Cambridge.
True, but that assumes that Cambridge will be a terminus. The objective is to run trains through Cambridge to Ipswich and Norwich.KeithW wrote: That said I have doubts about how much extra traffic you could really run in to Cambridge station given how busy the line is these days.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Indeed but the problem is not so much the station itself as the line through the station. The main line is only dual tracked and new traffic is already going to be added. This means that you would be mixing fast and semi-fast services on an already busy line and you would have 3 stations in just 3 miles of track. Jacobs did a report of the options and came to the conclusion that the best option was a new route south of the old varsity railway passing south of the radio observatory and Trumpington park and ride before picking up the old varsity route around Addenbrookes. However the capacity constraints between Shepreth and Waterbeach mean the line would need to be quadrupled and the problem is the corridor available for that between Trumpington and Cambridge has been used for the guided busway.crb11 wrote:
This looks entirely likely - the government seems keen on the idea so the initial planning stages will be underway soon.
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Re: Odd Junction on A1
Keith, much as I'd like to have a pop at the busway as a non-strategic piece of infrastucture, I'm going to resist this once. My suggestion of going via Hitchin means that much, if not all, of Letchworth to Foxton would need to be quadrupled, and any solution via Sandy needs the part from where it meets the Hitchin to Cambridge line to Foxton to be quadrupled. But what you are suggesting is that Cambridge station can't cope with the increased capacity. Do you have any evidence for this?KeithW wrote:However the capacity constraints between Shepreth and Waterbeach mean the line would need to be quadrupled and the problem is the corridor available for that between Trumpington and Cambridge has been used for the guided busway.
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Jacobs were commissioned by Network Rail to analyse the situation. Their report was issued in 2016 and their conclusions were that quadrupling would be necessary. I am not saying it cannot be done simply pointing out the problems were it to happen. With enough money anything is possible. However the costs of reinstating the route from Sandy to Cambridge would be high including as it does a long tunnel. The estimated cost was in the order of £ 1.4 billion. As it happens I am not having a pop at the guided busway I am simply pointing out the fact that the old varsity line approach to Cambridge station cannot be used if it is retained in its current form.iansergeant wrote:Keith, much as I'd like to have a pop at the busway as a non-strategic piece of infrastucture, I'm going to resist this once. My suggestion of going via Hitchin means that much, if not all, of Letchworth to Foxton would need to be quadrupled, and any solution via Sandy needs the part from where it meets the Hitchin to Cambridge line to Foxton to be quadrupled. But what you are suggesting is that Cambridge station can't cope with the increased capacity. Do you have any evidence for this?KeithW wrote:However the capacity constraints between Shepreth and Waterbeach mean the line would need to be quadrupled and the problem is the corridor available for that between Trumpington and Cambridge has been used for the guided busway.
The most cost effective route seemed to be C2-2 which would cross the ECML south of Sandy pass through Bassingbourn Barracks and join the existing line at Shepreth.https://16cbgt3sbwr8204sf92da3xxc5m-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/Engineering-Summary-Report.pdf wrote:Cambridge: From Sandy the railway would follow a new alignment that is likely to include a
tunnel of approximately 3.7km length, before joining the former Sandy to Cambridge railway route
towards Cambridge using short sections of new connecting lines
Re: Odd Junction on A1
Strange this thread went from a junction on the A1 to the railway that used to run underneath!
I noticed this section of A1 is between two bits of A1(M), I wonder if there is a possibility of closing the gap any time soon? It would have to be a new alignment of course, but there is plenty of empty land nearby.
It would also tie in nicely with the A14 upgrade project.
I noticed this section of A1 is between two bits of A1(M), I wonder if there is a possibility of closing the gap any time soon? It would have to be a new alignment of course, but there is plenty of empty land nearby.
It would also tie in nicely with the A14 upgrade project.
Formerly known as 'lortjw'
Re: Odd Junction on A1
I rather suspect the whole point of the A14 upgrade is to get what is by far the worst bit of the A1 off the strategic route network.
Bryn
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Terminally cynical, unimpressed, and nearly Middle Age already.
She said life was like a motorway; dull, grey, and long.
Blog - https://showmeasign.online/
X - https://twitter.com/ShowMeASignBryn
YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@BrynBuck
Re: Odd Junction on A1
I doubt anyone thought that far ahead. The A14 scheme is just firefighting on a cobbled together route that has ended up with motorway-level traffic.