A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

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RichardEvans67
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

by Herned » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:11

(there are a couple more which already have four lanes underneath).
I'm not sure it is as simple as that.

These bridges have S4 underneath. To convert them to a D2 there would need to be some sort of central barrier. I've looked closely on Google Earth street view, and space is so tight that I don't really see how they could safely find space for a barrier.

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to have short pieces of S4 in the middle of longer stretches of D2?. Or perhaps they could narrow the lanes, but again, is it safe to do that ? There is a very little bit of space either side of the carriageway, but if they used that, wouldn't it move the traffic perilously close to the bridge peers.

I think they'd still end up needing to replace them.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

by Paul237 » Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:15

Am I right in thinking that the A30 between Hayle and Long Rock is the original route?
I'm pretty sure it is. I think they basically haven't got around to improving this section yet.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by KeithW »

Paul237 wrote: Fri Apr 02, 2021 12:15 Thanks for your detailed reply above crowntown! Your local knowledge is always useful. :)

Am I right in thinking that the A30 between Hayle and Long Rock is the original route? It feels very 'old school' - i.e. SC that runs through villages and towns with no bypasses. My late father always used to holiday in West Cornwall as a child and he used to tell me about the long journeys from the Midlands to Cornwall in the 1950s/1960s. I like to think his route for that last stretch would have been the same as it still is today.


A quick look on Sabre maps will answer that question - which is yes at least as shown on the 1920's Popular Edition OS maps.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by Herned »

RichardEvans67 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 07:30
by Herned » Thu Apr 01, 2021 10:11

(there are a couple more which already have four lanes underneath).
I'm not sure it is as simple as that.

These bridges have S4 underneath. To convert them to a D2 there would need to be some sort of central barrier. I've looked closely on Google Earth street view, and space is so tight that I don't really see how they could safely find space for a barrier.

Wouldn't it be a bit dangerous to have short pieces of S4 in the middle of longer stretches of D2?. Or perhaps they could narrow the lanes, but again, is it safe to do that ? There is a very little bit of space either side of the carriageway, but if they used that, wouldn't it move the traffic perilously close to the bridge peers.

I think they'd still end up needing to replace them.
If you look at the section of the A1 in Gateshead where the cheap widening was done they have pushed the lanes right up against the bridge abutments. Something similar could be done here.

Or even convert the whole section to S4 and put post and wire down the centre, it could be possible to do that without needing to rebuild any bridges
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

by Herned » Sat Apr 03, 2021 09:28

If you look at the section of the A1 in Gateshead where the cheap widening was done they have pushed the lanes right up against the bridge abutments. Something similar could be done here.

Or even convert the whole section to S4 and put post and wire down the centre, it could be possible to do that without needing to rebuild any bridges
I haven't seen that.

Well perhaps a 'cheap' widening, but there would still be several bridges that would need replacing.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by Debaser »

Herned wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 09:28 Or even convert the whole section to S4 and put post and wire down the centre, it could be possible to do that without needing to rebuild any bridges
I've suggested a similar treatment before. The barrier specialists usually have a feinting spell and when they come round start muttering about 'working width'. I wouldn't say it couldn't be done (IIRC the Swedes treated a lot of their rural S2 roads in a similar way following early EuroRAP results), but it would need a highway authority engineer with some cojones to implement it.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by Herned »

Ireland has built a fair bit of secondary DC like that, such as here.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by BF2142 »

Heck, if you can get away with calling the tidal, multi-laned, no-barrier urban A38(M) a motorway, why not a quieter S4 A30?

Personally I'd prefer a segregated DC but if a continuous S4 was the only option on the table, why not?

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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

BF2142 wrote: Sat Apr 03, 2021 19:09 Heck, if you can get away with calling the tidal, multi-laned, no-barrier urban A38(M) a motorway, why not a quieter S4 A30?

Personally I'd prefer a segregated DC but if a continuous S4 was the only option on the table, why not?

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Because the A38(M) always has a complete clear lane between opposing traffic - not as secure as D3M but more secure than S4
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

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crowntown100 wrote: Thu Apr 01, 2021 20:46 The only place that it could happen is along the Blackwater bypass (Chiverton Cross to Scorrier), or possibly even as far as Avers Roundabout. That was reaching around 40k AADT pre-Covid, so any return to those kinds of traffic levels, combined with an increase in traffic once Chiverton Cross to Carland Cross is built and feeds into this section, could push this into widening territory, but it's unlikely due to the space constraints at the Scorrier end where it runs alongside the railway unless they were to get creative with retaining walls, and there are much longer stretches of D2 with comfortably more than those traffic levels that need that investment first.
Those flows are low for a DC. The A34 north of the M4 carries 60K and south of the M40 65K, with the A404 carrying 50K.

Using the HE Webtris site, in 2019, the AADT at Connor Downs was 26,314, with the December and January flows being 22,234 and August being 29,755, so outside peak times the S2 +1 works. However in August the westbound flows are 13,417 and eastbound 16,338 which indicates that as westbound is mainly 1 lane, locals still use the old road.

There is no data for the Hayle bypass, but at Crowlas it is again for 2019, AADT 21,157, winter 18,615 and August 23,479.

Ignoring holiday season, a single lane bypass of Crowlas would suffice, and with these flows the A30 Connor Downs and Hayle bypasses are satisfactory for the normal traffic flows.

Do not forget Cornwall Council and the HE are going to Hamburger Loggins Moor which will be completed the same time as Chiverton to Carland, and this will assist in reducing the queues.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by Norfolktolancashire »

On passing last week I noted that perimeter fencing has begun along with some earthmoving near the Chiverton Cross Roundabout, this peters out around a mile north east.

There are some long term road closures on minor roads leading off the A30 to accommodate works traffic.

There are small yellow signs all along the route saying A30 works.

Other than that, not much else is obvious at the moment. The existing road is still 60mph.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

by Norfolktolancashire » Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42

On passing last week I noted that perimeter fencing has begun along with some earthmoving near the Chiverton Cross Roundabout, this peters out around a mile north east.
I assume you are talking about petering out, when it gets to the end of the improvement.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

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Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42 On passing last week I noted that perimeter fencing has begun along with some earthmoving near the Chiverton Cross Roundabout, this peters out around a mile north east.

There are some long term road closures on minor roads leading off the A30 to accommodate works traffic.

There are small yellow signs all along the route saying A30 works.

Other than that, not much else is obvious at the moment. The existing road is still 60mph.

I drove through yesterday, and there was a little more earth moving, and signs indicating that the road is expected to open in September 2023. There are also protest signs printed out and covering some of the official signs, with rather graphic textual un-family friendly wording of what the protestors believe that the new road is doing to the Cornish countryside.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

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by c2R » Sat May 08, 2021 09:57

Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42
There are also protest signs printed out and covering some of the official signs
Even though 90% of local people want the scheme, the environmentalists still make a noise. I was reading a web page the other day, with the ludicrous claim that Highways England had mislead people by saying it was a dueling. They seemed to think that dueling implies not going offline. Well the plans have been on the web since 2017, and there have been many consultations about it. So if anybody didn't realise there are offline parts, they clearly weren't very interested.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by solocle »

RichardEvans67 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 21:01
by c2R » Sat May 08, 2021 09:57

Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42
There are also protest signs printed out and covering some of the official signs
Even though 90% of local people want the scheme, the environmentalists still make a noise. I was reading a web page the other day, with the ludicrous claim that Highways England had mislead people by saying it was a dueling. They seemed to think that dueling implies not going offline. Well the plans have been on the web since 2017, and there have been many consultations about it. So if anybody didn't realise there are offline parts, they clearly weren't very interested.
Frankly online dualling is worse than offline dualling, as with offline dualling you have a chance of getting a decent NMU route.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

by solocle » Mon May 10, 2021 09:47

Frankly online dualling is worse than offline dualling, as with offline dualling you have a chance of getting a decent NMU route.
Well, I think it varies a lot with the circumstances. But in this case, I agree.

At Tample it was best to stay online to avoid affecting more virgin land.

For this scheme, if it was online it would affect lots of properties and accesses along the route. By going offline, it actually takes the heavy traffic away from people's homes, and mostly takes it through fields. It does also make a better quality long distance route, as the old route would cater for all the local accesses etc. So the new route doesn't have to.

I'd add that this web page was also making a big deal about saying lots of trees are being destroyed. Well I don't know the details, but I would think these days they would have to replace all the trees lost with new trees elsewhere. Also the new trees would probably end up absorbing more CO2 that the old ones, as they would need to grow more.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

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c2R wrote:
Norfolktolancashire wrote: Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42 On passing last week I noted that perimeter fencing has begun along with some earthmoving near the Chiverton Cross Roundabout, this peters out around a mile north east.

There are some long term road closures on minor roads leading off the A30 to accommodate works traffic.

There are small yellow signs all along the route saying A30 works.

Other than that, not much else is obvious at the moment. The existing road is still 60mph.

I drove through yesterday, and there was a little more earth moving, and signs indicating that the road is expected to open in September 2023. There are also protest signs printed out and covering some of the official signs, with rather graphic textual un-family friendly wording of what the protestors believe that the new road is doing to the Cornish countryside.
I'd sympathise if Cornwall already had an abundance of great roads.

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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by c2R »

It's also close to the existing alignment, rather than a new alignment, and will presumably provide a lovely route for NMUs. It will also have a load of features that the existing road doesn't have aimed at environmental protection, such as actually filtering surface run-off, as well as reducing accidents at several dodgey junctions on the existing road. It's also not like it's going through a stunningly beautiful piece of landscape, which in this area is mainly agricultural with the addition of solar and wind farms.

As for people thinking that it's online dualling, there's a good reason that reconstruction is preferred these days.....!
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by A303Chris »

RichardEvans67 wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 21:01
by c2R » Sat May 08, 2021 09:57

Norfolktolancashire wrote: ↑Tue Apr 06, 2021 22:42
There are also protest signs printed out and covering some of the official signs
Even though 90% of local people want the scheme, the environmentalists still make a noise. I was reading a web page the other day, with the ludicrous claim that Highways England had mislead people by saying it was a dueling. They seemed to think that dueling implies not going offline. Well the plans have been on the web since 2017, and there have been many consultations about it. So if anybody didn't realise there are offline parts, they clearly weren't very interested.
The Cornwall Live story is here and some of the quotes from the objectors are laughable or they did not read the plans.

Here are some
One part of the expressway will carve a new four-lane bypass around an already existing four-lane bypass thus carving in total eight tarmacked lanes of parallel traffic where historic fields lay.
Well this has to be Zelah and the existing bridge on the short four lane section of the A30 is being reused, so they are routing along the existing road here.
The main hold-ups are the two roundabouts at either end. They’re putting huge two-level junctions around these roundabouts. They could have just altered those areas with a single bridge so that the traffic on the main road could flow, but they’re completely trashing 8.7 miles of countryside when they could have taken a lot less and for a lot less money.
This is from a local farmer, obviously not looking in his mirrors when he goes along at 10mph, bringing the whole section to a standstill. Seriously it is a slog even in free flow conditions.
Others who have spoken out against the work include CPRE (Campaign to Protect Rural England) Cornwall, Cornwall Green Party, Cornwall Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace, Climate Action St Austell, St Day and Carharrack Climate Action Group, Helston Climate Action Group, Zelah Community Climate Group and Extinction Rebellion
When I see XR and once you know the history behind them they are just an anarchic group, so do not take them seriously.

I do not think they understand the economic benefits of the road, or the fact that a large part of cornwall's economy is reliant on tourism.
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Re: A30 Carland Cross Chiverton Cross

Post by RichardEvans67 »

(Lost the bit about who wrote this)
"One part of the expressway will carve a new four-lane bypass around an already existing four-lane bypass thus carving in total eight tarmacked lanes of parallel traffic where historic fields lay."


Well this has to be Zelah and the existing bridge on the short four lane section of the A30 is being reused, so they are routing along the existing road here.
At 1st I though that, but the article was talking about 8 lanes.

I wondered if they meant a short stretch North East of Carland Cross. Part of the old D2 will be realigned. So presumably there would be a temporary stage during construction when there will be 8 lanes. By the end though they would presumably break up any unneeded lanes.
Last edited by RichardEvans67 on Mon May 10, 2021 18:14, edited 3 times in total.
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