A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

roadphotos
Member
Posts: 1074
Joined: Tue Feb 14, 2017 19:28

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

Having checked with the local authorities along the A91 route it seems that it's a Primary Route through the Stirling and Clackmannanshire local authority areas and is signed as such (green signs) but as soon as you cross the border from Clackmannanshire into Perth and Kinross the A91 becomes a Non Primary Route and has Non Primary signage, also all of the A91 in Fife is Non Primary. This would make sense as it's when you cross the border from Clackmannanshire into Perth and Kinross that the signs change from green to white. The A811 in the Stirling Council area is also a Primary Route and has green signs but the section that runs through West Dunbartonshire has Non Primary signage, this means that the only way that maps could show these roads correctly is if they showed the road changing colour from green to red on route at the local authority boundaries where it doesn't meet any other roads. In other news the A915, A92 (Dundee to Stonehaven), A98, A952 and A816 are now shown as Non Primary Routes (coloured red) on the OS maps, they had all previously been shown as Primary Routes (Coloured green).
User avatar
orudge
Site Manager
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:23
Location: Banchory
Contact:

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by orudge »

Do you have some kind of reference from Stirling and Clacks councils confirming this? I'd be interested to see what Transport Scotland had to say on the matter - it would certainly be quite an anomaly for those non-trunk roads to be primary given there are almost no other non-trunk primary roads in Scotland (and this sign, installed sometime between 2011 and 2014, certainly thinks the A91 shouldn't be primary).
JoshBostock01
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2020 22:44

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by JoshBostock01 »

Scotland doesn't have primary roads in my opinion, we have either trunk roads and motorways that are signed with green or blue signs respectfully or council maintained roads with white signs.

The A9000 Forth Road Bridge is the only exception to this rule as far as I'm aware!
User avatar
Chris5156
Deputy Treasurer
Posts: 16896
Joined: Thu Sep 06, 2001 21:50
Location: Hampshire
Contact:

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Chris5156 »

orudge wrote: Sun Jul 11, 2021 00:23 Do you have some kind of reference from Stirling and Clacks councils confirming this? I'd be interested to see what Transport Scotland had to say on the matter - it would certainly be quite an anomaly for those non-trunk roads to be primary given there are almost no other non-trunk primary roads in Scotland (and this sign, installed sometime between 2011 and 2014, certainly thinks the A91 shouldn't be primary).
It's also extremely poor practice for one council to treat a road as primary if a neighbouring authority doesn't. There ought to be agreement about the whole road so that signage is consistent - no road should change status just because it crosses a local authority boundary. It's either primary or it's not.
Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

With the exception of the Blue bit between Milnathort and Arlary, the OS continue to show it Red.
The A91 is of considerably more importance in Stirling than it is in P&K, and all the councils seem to have slightly different definitions, for example Fife consider "C" roads to be equal to B roads in their descriptions.

Stirling to Dollar it's an important route to the hillfoot villages, after Dollar it's really a nothing until Arlary at which point it becomes the main way into North Fife and North Fife votes the wrong way for Fife Council to care.
User avatar
Was92now625
Member
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 00:29
Location: near A625

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Was92now625 »

From the SABRE Wiki "Primary Routes are designed to show recommended routes between Primary Destinations, which are "places of major traffic importance", usually the most important towns and cities in an area .... "

I know that we could talk about "recommended routes" for some time but the consensus would probably be that the recommended route between Stirling and St Andrews would be via the A91 rather than via Perth/Dundee or Dunfermline/Kirkcaldy.

Also, in the Wiki, Stirling is a Primary Destination but the status of St Andrews is not so clear. It seems to be listed both as a current and a former destination. So, the status of the A91 (as a whole) depends on the status of St Andrews.

Of course, a question about the western half is "is there another primary destination that you could travel along the western A91 to reach from Stirling and no obvious one comes to mind that would cause the western half to be primary and not the eastern half.

I raise this partly as the link between Primary Destinations and Primary Routes does not seem as "neat" as the statement above implies - this is not criticising the wiki as I had had similar doubts even before the days of SABRE. Of course, one of the things that adds further interest is "exceptions" but the disparity between Primary Destinations and Primary Routes seems further removed than this.
User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by A72 »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote: Thu Oct 19, 2017 21:21It reminds me of the A71 changing from primary green to non-primary red on some maps at the border between East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire. The AA atlases show the A72 between Galashiels and Blyth Bridge in red, similarly the A721 between Blyth Bridge and Carluke and the A73 between Carluke and the M8 are shown as non-primary. Peebles is shown as a non-primary destination.
It took a while for Scottish Borders Council to replace all the green signs on the A72, and the A703. There was a wholesale replacement of green signs, in late-2008/early-2009. The green signs at Leadburn weren't replaced until about 2010.
Midlothian Council still have one more sign to replace:https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.81212 ... 384!8i8192
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
User avatar
orudge
Site Manager
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:23
Location: Banchory
Contact:

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by orudge »

Perth and Kinross still have some green signs to replace on the A93 (last time I was down that way anyway). Aberdeenshire on the other hand took down the last green A93 sign that I knew of (at the A93/A980 junction - it was actually on the A980) a year or so ago. Possibly there may be some random ones elsewhere in the Shire, but certainly the A93 itself is I think totally green in this neck of the woods.
User avatar
Owain
Elected Committee Member
Posts: 26147
Joined: Fri Aug 21, 2009 17:02
Location: Leodis

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Owain »

roadphotos wrote: Sat Jul 10, 2021 19:25 Having checked with the local authorities along the A91 route it seems that it's a Primary Route through the Stirling and Clackmannanshire local authority areas and is signed as such (green signs) but as soon as you cross the border from Clackmannanshire into Perth and Kinross the A91 becomes a Non Primary Route and has Non Primary signage, also all of the A91 in Fife is Non Primary. This would make sense as it's when you cross the border from Clackmannanshire into Perth and Kinross that the signs change from green to white. The A811 in the Stirling Council area is also a Primary Route and has green signs but the section that runs through West Dunbartonshire has Non Primary signage, this means that the only way that maps could show these roads correctly is if they showed the road changing colour from green to red on route at the local authority boundaries where it doesn't meet any other roads. In other news the A915, A92 (Dundee to Stonehaven), A98, A952 and A816 are now shown as Non Primary Routes (coloured red) on the OS maps, they had all previously been shown as Primary Routes (Coloured green).

I drove the A91 yesterday, from the A92 to Stirling. Most of the signs are green, but several are white. I wondered why, and you've explained it!

I believe the A71 similarly changes from white to green signage halfway between the M74 and Ayr.
Former President & F99 Driver

Viva la Repubblica!
Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

Slightly perversely if I was going to Stirling I'd take the A91 from Melville Lodges, the M90 from Arlary to Kinross then the A977, M876 and M9 to Stirling, not the A91

As to the status of StAndrews
Forgan to StAndrews isn't primary iirc.
I don't think any road east of the A92 has been since it swapped routes with the A914.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

User avatar
Was92now625
Member
Posts: 848
Joined: Fri Jan 08, 2010 00:29
Location: near A625

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Was92now625 »

Nwallace wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 01:19 Slightly perversely if I was going to Stirling I'd take the A91 from Melville Lodges, the M90 from Arlary to Kinross then the A977, M876 and M9 to Stirling, not the A91
There have been times that I have felt that the last few miles into Stirling from the A91 took a disproportionate amount of time. Of course, the feeling wasn't strong enough for me to do anything about it next time !

Also depends on whereabouts in Stirling you are headed.
User avatar
orudge
Site Manager
Posts: 8226
Joined: Sun May 27, 2007 12:23
Location: Banchory
Contact:

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by orudge »

I do think there'd be an argument for re-trunking the A977 - especially as we have the slightly unusual situation of the A876 trunk road (Clackmannanshire Bridge) just ending at a roundabout with the A977. The A977 is a quite decent quality road from memory, though a couple of small bypasses of the villages wouldn't hurt.
Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

Was92now625 wrote:
Nwallace wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 01:19 Slightly perversely if I was going to Stirling I'd take the A91 from Melville Lodges, the M90 from Arlary to Kinross then the A977, M876 and M9 to Stirling, not the A91
There have been times that I have felt that the last few miles into Stirling from the A91 took a disproportionate amount of time. Of course, the feeling wasn't strong enough for me to do anything about it next time !

Also depends on whereabouts in Stirling you are headed.
True, if I was heading for Causewayhead then maybe I would go A91

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

Hold on, I'm confusing Stirling and Falkirk

Googles recommended routes merge at fishcross B9140 or A91

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

User avatar
A72
Member
Posts: 787
Joined: Fri Jul 20, 2012 17:21
Location: Newtown St Boswells, Scottish Borders

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by A72 »

Was92now625 wrote: Wed Jul 14, 2021 11:36There have been times that I have felt that the last few miles into Stirling from the A91 took a disproportionate amount of time. Of course, the feeling wasn't strong enough for me to do anything about it next time !

Also depends on whereabouts in Stirling you are headed.
I agree. That last bit always seems to take forever. Mind you, every time I've been that way, I've been stuck behind an HGV, or there have been roadworks.
The 7-Zone Challenge
A roads: 71/71
B roads: 181/181
Total: 252/252

Completed: 04/11/20.
Nwallace
Member
Posts: 4238
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2007 22:42
Location: Dundee

Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

Forgot to check what signs are up at Melville Lodges but the 32miles to Stirling board just west of the circle* is green


*possibly actually trafalgar, I was pushing reasonably hard instead of taking it easy.

Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Post Reply