A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

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A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

Does anyone know if the A91 from Stirling to the M90 (junction 7) near Kinross is a Primary Route, some maps and atlases show the A91 as Non Primary (coloured red) and others show this section of the A91 as a Primary Route (coloured green). The SABRE Wiki says that the A91 is Non Primary but both Stirling and Clackmannanshire Councils insist that the road is a Primary Route. There seems to be a lot of confusion about the correct classification of this road and this is not helped by the fact that road atlases vary. A-Z atlases show the road as a Primary Route (coloured green), the Collins and AA atlases show the A91 as a Non Primary Route (coloured red). Ordnance Survey maps show the road changing from green to red on route east of Stirling. Also all of my maps show different routes for the Primary Route at Stirling, some show the Primary A91 by-passing to the east of Stirling and finishing at the M9 (junction 9) and others show the Primary Route heading into Stirling and I'm not sure which is correct. Maps and atlases also vary on the section of the A91 from the M90 (junction 8) to St Andrews. Once again some show the road in green and others show it in red.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by rileyrob »

There used to be a lot of Primary routes in Scotland that weren't Trunk, then there was a clever idea to downgrade non trunk primary routes to be non primary, but x years later there are still a lot of older signs out there. Almost all of the former primary routes now have a mix of green and white signs (A71, A816, A93 for starters), and maps contradict one another. It is now believed that some of the old primary routes are considered to be primary once more, but not trunk.
Trunk routes in Scotland are easy enough to pin down by finding the right bit of the Traffic Scotland website (over the winter this is easy as the gritting map is there).

So in answer to your question, yes and no. Yes, it was primary, then it wasnt primary, but to be honest, I'm not sure anyone could be certain anymore.

There are also some routes, such as the A921 I think, which the OS changes online from red to green at something as arbitrary as a grid line (this might match a sheet join on printed maps). If I remember correctly, the primary route through Stirling used to follow the A905 from the A9 to the A91, but that was before the A811 was rerouted.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by wrinkly »

The policy of not having primary non-trunk roads in Scotland led to ridiculous phenomena like the grade-separated Glasgow Southern Orbital being non-primary.

In Wales there are about three primary non-trunk roads, whilst in England there have always been dozens.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by orudge »

My understanding is that the entire A91 is non-primary (as per the policy that only trunk roads are primary in Scotland, in theory). Fife Council has been pretty good at replacing the green signs on the A91, Stirling and Clacks less so, although you can see examples on Street View comparing 2008 with now where signs have gone from green to white. Same with the A93 in Perth and Kinross (where there are still many green signs, unlike Aberdeenshire where they’re pretty much all white now).
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Burns »

If the A977 is non-primary then the A91 has no chance.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Osthagen »

Used to be primary throughout.

It's now been completely overshadowed by roads such as the A92 & A90, so there's no longer any need for any part of it to be primary.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by vlad »

The road certainly isn't trunk.

Theoretically, as has already been said, this means it's non-primary as the idea is that there are no primary non-trunk roads in Scotland. Whether this is the case of course is another question.

Don't rely too much on how much green you can see on maps and signs as it's possible they haven't moved with the times.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

A-Z maps and atlases used to show both the A91 and A977 as Non Primary Routes (coloured red) but all of the A-Z maps and atlases now show both roads as Primary Routes (coloured green) so far from these roads changing from Primary to Non Primary these maps seem to suggest the opposite. The A-Z started showing the A977 as a Primary Route when the A876 Clackmannanshire Bridge opened. Also if the A977 wasn't a Primary Route then this would mean that the Primary A876 must stop being a Primary Route north of the Clackmannanshire Bridge (at the end of the A876) where it doesn't link with any other Primary Routes. Not sure about all Non Trunk Roads in Scotland not being Primary Routes either, if this was the case once it certainly isn't now. The A811 is a Primary Route on all maps and atlases and has green Primary Route signs but I don't think it's a Trunk Road. The same could be said for the A761 and A726 in Paisley (both shown as Primary Routes on maps and atlases).
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by rileyrob »

I think I'm right in saying that the Clackmannanshire Bridge is Trunk, and as a result, so is the A876, and then the A977 south through Kincardine to rejoin the A985.
This Map gives the current trunk road network, according to Traffic Scotland.

As for the A811, it is predominantly, if not completely signed as primary through Stirling Council area, even the re-routing through Stirling, except that the non primary A81 takes precedence at the short multiplex. However, in West Dunbartonshire, it is mostly signed as non primary through Balloch, and on towards the boundary.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by orudge »

rileyrob wrote:As for the A811, it is predominantly, if not completely signed as primary through Stirling Council area, even the re-routing through Stirling, except that the non primary A81 takes precedence at the short multiplex. However, in West Dunbartonshire, it is mostly signed as non primary through Balloch, and on towards the boundary.
Given Stirling Council also thinks the A91 is primary, perhaps the problem lies with Stirling Council? ;)

This trunk road sign certainly doesn't think the A811 is primary. And, as of 2016, Clackmannanshire Council don't think the A91 is either (and again, nor do signs on the M90).

Re: the A977, personally I think there could be a case for re-trunking and improving this road, but I don't expect it's overly likely.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Glen »

I'm convinced that Stirling and Clackmannanshire think that the A811 and A91 are primary, in their areas at least. Even through none of the adjoining authorities agree with that.

While there are plenty of formerly primary routes in Scotland with a mixture of newer white signs and clearly older green signs, the A91 and A811 are consistently green signed in Stirling and Clackmannanshire. Including many post-1994 signs.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

Fife seem fairly sure it is non primary.

https://goo.gl/maps/YrsRvMJg7sH2 - Which also shows a usage of Tay/Forth Bridge in St Andrews (that was another thread i know)

https://goo.gl/maps/xdnTcFMbB4y - Dundee and Edinburgh used as destinations there

https://goo.gl/maps/9czJ37j9nGk - And here but Kincardine Bridge turns up now

Just clicking along through junctions in fife it seems there's a switching between Edinburgh at one sign and FRB at the next

There is of course the odd feeling signs at Melville Lodges
https://goo.gl/maps/AhfoTBSGwPk
Switch back to 2009 and it's a non-primary sign with Blue border, so Fife clearly haven't had it signed as Primary in a long time

However at Gateside (Still in Fife (Just))!!! also note the funny spacing on the (A92); presumably the sign predates the route swap.
THere's also a route confirmation just up the hill that's green.
https://goo.gl/maps/y5g4cE5Vg4r
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

I had decided not to mention about the fact that the A811 is signed as a Non Primary Route (white signs) in the West Dunbartonshire area but Primary (green signs) in the Stirling Council area, thought it would cause even more confusion but as someone has already brought up the subject then it's worth noting that there have been some road atlases that have shown the A811 in Stirling as Primary (coloured green) but the road changed to red (Non Primary) when it crossed the border into West Dunbartonshire. I think it was the Philip's Navigator atlas that showed the A811 changing from green to red on route. Most of the A811 is in the Stirling Council area and they say that the road is a Primary Route so I guess that's why all road atlases show the whole of the A811 as a Primary Route, if the road suddenly changed from green to red on route on maps and atlases in would look rather silly. Interesting that the Trunk Road map of Scotland shows a section of the A80 that's by-passed by the M80 as a Trunk Road. Also the Trunk Road map shows the A91 as a Primary Route, if you zoom in the A91 is shown in green but so is the A915 and A72 so I still can't be sure. I can see what you mean about the Trunk Road going north of the Clackmannanshire Bridge (A876) then heading south to Kincardine (A977). As far as the A91 is concerned I think it depends who you speak to.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

roadphotos wrote:I had decided not to mention about the fact that the A811 is signed as a Non Primary Route (white signs) in the West Dunbartonshire area but Primary (green signs) in the Stirling Council area, thought it would cause even more confusion but as someone has already brought up the subject then it's worth noting that there have been some road atlases that have shown the A811 in Stirling as Primary (coloured green) but the road changed to red (Non Primary) when it crossed the border into West Dunbartonshire. I think it was the Philip's Navigator atlas that showed the A811 changing from green to red on route. Most of the A811 is in the Stirling Council area and they say that the road is a Primary Route so I guess that's why all road atlases show the whole of the A811 as a Primary Route, if the road suddenly changed from green to red on route on maps and atlases in would look rather silly. Interesting that the Trunk Road map of Scotland shows a section of the A80 that's by-passed by the M80 as a Trunk Road. Also the Trunk Road map shows the A91 as a Primary Route, if you zoom in the A91 is shown in green but so is the A915 and A72 so I still can't be sure. I can see what you mean about the Trunk Road going north of the Clackmannanshire Bridge (A876) then heading south to Kincardine (A977). As far as the A91 is concerned I think it depends who you speak to.
It reminds me of the A71 changing from primary green to non-primary red on some maps at the border between East Ayrshire and South Lanarkshire. The AA atlases show the A72 between Galashiels and Blyth Bridge in red, similarly the A721 between Blyth Bridge and Carluke and the A73 between Carluke and the M8 are shown as non-primary. Peebles is shown as a non-primary destination.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by rileyrob »

roadphotos wrote: Also the Trunk Road map shows the A91 as a Primary Route, if you zoom in the A91 is shown in green but so is the A915 and A72 so I still can't be sure.
I think the base map is Google, which is as accurate as any of the Atlases you care to mention.

I suspect that the main problem is that the very slow progress in replacing the green signs (or not, Stirling Council) has confused the map producers, who are just as confused as everyone else. But on the other hand, look at that map of the trunk road network, and imagine an atlas that only showed those routes in Green. Scotland would look bereft of good roads.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

It would be interesting to see how many road atlases show roads changing from Primary Routes (coloured green) to Non Primary Routes (coloured red) as they cross the borders from 1 county to another. My year 2018 Collins Road Atlas shows 2 roads that do this. The A418 changes from green to red as it crosses from Buckinghamshire to Oxfordshire at Thame. The A71 is also shown doing the same in Scotland.
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by Nwallace »

The A915 is still signed as Primary in places, Certainly at Lathockar it's got Green finger posts
https://goo.gl/maps/LCid4RQbSCH2

And at Higham toll it's was a bit of a missmash in 2012

At the North junction https://goo.gl/maps/vf3amT4eBjH2

Approach from the North non-primary
https://goo.gl/maps/2xbniS2WEPq

At the South Junction https://goo.gl/maps/SdnvrpTvxhv
Yes Fife do like making the cycleways signs point at each other...

The south Route confirmation
https://goo.gl/maps/risXVSoRhkC2
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by rileyrob »

An Interesting map has appeared on Transport Scotlands Twitter page today: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNCwf4X0AAfZcx.jpg:large
It shows all of their roads and the organisations responsible for maintenance, including the DBFO routes.

It also amuses me that they have chosen to number a few of the routes in the Highlands, and the A751, although the A87 label appears to be left from the 1950s, as it looks like it is aligned to the old road across A87/Loch Loyne!
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From the SABRE Wiki: A87/Loch Loyne :

When Thomas Telford's team built their road from Invergarry westwards in the 1810s, it initially just followed Glen Garry and Glen Quoich, before dropping down to the coast at Kinloch Hourn. This route is still highway (although realigned around Loch Quoich), and the longest dead end in the country at something like 24 miles. They also built the road from Invermoriston west past Loch Cluanie and so through Glen Shiel to Lochalsh. A little later they built a link

... Read More
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by novaecosse »

rileyrob wrote:An Interesting map has appeared on Transport Scotlands Twitter page today: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQNCwf4X0AAfZcx.jpg:large
It shows all of their roads and the organisations responsible for maintenance, including the DBFO routes.

It also amuses me that they have chosen to number a few of the routes in the Highlands, and the A751, although the A87 label appears to be left from the 1950s, as it looks like it is aligned to the old road across A87/Loch Loyne!
*cough* M6 DBFO *cough*

From the SABRE Wiki: A87/Loch Loyne :

When Thomas Telford's team built their road from Invergarry westwards in the 1810s, it initially just followed Glen Garry and Glen Quoich, before dropping down to the coast at Kinloch Hourn. This route is still highway (although realigned around Loch Quoich), and the longest dead end in the country at something like 24 miles. They also built the road from Invermoriston west past Loch Cluanie and so through Glen Shiel to Lochalsh. A little later they built a link

... Read More
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Re: A91 in Scotland (Primary or Non Primary)

Post by roadphotos »

If it were up to me I would have the Primary Route network in Scotland exactly how it's shown on the 2018 A-Z Road Atlas.
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