The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.
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stuartf wrote:I suspect if we see any large-scale road building in the next few decades, it will be for autonomous vehicles or some other new transport infrastructure. If you look at how quickly trams appeared and disappeared in the 20th century, or the railway boom of the mid 19th century, or the vast amount of lost infrastructure that once supported coal and horse-drawn transport, another big change is possible and could happen within many of our lifetimes.
It would be risky to rush into major road or indeed rail schemes without greater certainty about where things are going (HS2 is due to be finished in 2033 but will probably be later). The era of the internal combustion engined motor vehicle is coming to an end, and likewise the age of the motorway could be over, although it's probably easier to fit autonomous vehicle infrastructure onto them than to demolish them entirely. Maybe 100 years from now, enthusiasts will be painstakingly tracing the former route of the M1 or M25.
I really do doubt this autonomous vehicle idea is anywhere near ready to be rolled out within the next 20 or so years, unless computing power is somehow beefed up something huge and some really advance programming is put into place. Even then the vehicle would be reliant on what the programmers have programmed it to do, which I doubt will be able to cope with all situations even then, unless the computer 'brain' of the vehicle can adapt itself to new situations.
Either way we need more good roads and, if as you say they could be adapted for autonomous vehicles anyway, why not build them for the future?
Motorways in the UK are restricted roads by their nature anyway, so I dont see the issue. A roads on the other hand would need a lot of conversions, as I cant see it being safe for a long time to have autonomous vehicles interacting with pedestrians for a long time to come, not with out a lot of testing over many years.
Thats also putting the aversion of autonomous vehicles aside, that I and Im sure many others have of wanting to use them.
orudge wrote:...the AWPR is being built as a Special Road limited to traffic classes I and II - exactly the same as a motorway. In some ways it might be more confusing having the road as A90/A956 instead of M90/A90(M) or M956/A956(M)! I expect the physical road standard is the reason they're not going down the M-route (despite the existence of motorways with arguably lower standards than the AWPR anyway).
The AWPR should really have been designed as a motorway to avoid the mess at Stonehaven and that roundabout in the middle of the route that'll no doubt lead to problems second after the road opens to the public. I'll never understand UK road construction.
stuartf wrote:I suspect if we see any large-scale road building in the next few decades, it will be for autonomous vehicles or some other new transport infrastructure. If you look at how quickly trams appeared and disappeared in the 20th century, or the railway boom of the mid 19th century, or the vast amount of lost infrastructure that once supported coal and horse-drawn transport, another big change is possible and could happen within many of our lifetimes.
I'm fascinated by this. You could make a relief road easier and cheaper to build by building it to a very low standard, and then open it to autonomous vehicles only. Everyone would benefit from the increased capacity but clearly there would be an incentive to go autonomous and have a choice of routes.
jackal wrote:A1(M) N Yorkshire (under construction)
M4 Newport bypass (committed)
A1(M) S Yorkshire (committed)
M54 link (committed)
M62 relief road and/or M58 extension (options phase) M67 extension (options phase)
M42 extension (Midlands Connect strategy)
A1(M) in the Midlands (Midlands Connect strategy)
As has been discussed fairly recently on this thread, there’s no confirmation that the Manchester-Sheffield tunnel actually will be a part of the M67. It could well do, but it’s too early to confirm as of yet.
Some of the proposed routes for this tunnel don’t even involve the M67, with at least one route joining the M60 Ring Road further north.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
stuartf wrote:I suspect if we see any large-scale road building in the next few decades, it will be for autonomous vehicles or some other new transport infrastructure. If you look at how quickly trams appeared and disappeared in the 20th century, or the railway boom of the mid 19th century, or the vast amount of lost infrastructure that once supported coal and horse-drawn transport, another big change is possible and could happen within many of our lifetimes.
I'm fascinated by this. You could make a relief road easier and cheaper to build by building it to a very low standard, and then open it to autonomous vehicles only. Everyone would benefit from the increased capacity but clearly there would be an incentive to go autonomous and have a choice of routes.
I agree that this is what'll happen. Electric motoring will take over in the next few years, and autonomous driving technology will follow shortly after. Sad as it sounds, I think 'driving' will become a sport in the same way that shooting or pilotting have - essentially, we'll become driving hobbyists. You can see the first steps in the Tesla/Uber model now of being able to order a taxi; I suspect something will exist along the lines of a driverless taxi that you'll order through your personal assistant at home (Alexa/Google Home as we have it now). You'll join a convoy of driverless cars to your destination that's door-to-door, but the convoy allows us to move around optimally.
Sounds like a nightmare to many but I do believe kids that are born now, or have even been around a few years, will never need to learn to drive. And I honestly think we'll see the biggest changes over the next ten years, so it's not that far away.
To that end, I think that HS2 will be out of date by the time it's delivered. We'll either have door-to-door using the driverless model, or Hyperloop will've been proven.
To that end, roads aren't out of date, and as stuartf and Johnathan have said, roads may be built for autonomous vehicles only. That'll mean the adaptation of our network to allow autonomous vehicles only on most routes.
jackal wrote:A1(M) N Yorkshire (under construction)
M4 Newport bypass (committed)
A1(M) S Yorkshire (committed)
M54 link (committed)
M62 relief road and/or M58 extension (options phase) M67 extension (options phase)
M42 extension (Midlands Connect strategy)
A1(M) in the Midlands (Midlands Connect strategy)
As has been discussed fairly recently on this thread, there’s no confirmation that the Manchester-Sheffield tunnel actually will be a part of the M67. It could well do, but it’s too early to confirm as of yet.
Some of the proposed routes for this tunnel don’t even involve the M67, with at least one route joining the M60 Ring Road further north.
One out of the five routes isn't a continuation of the M67, but there's almost no chance it would be selected as it fares poorly in the relevant documents and doesn't go anywhere near Sheffield.
In any case, much of the list is speculative as regards numbering, but I indicated the most likely designation to give a general sense of what's involved.
Glenn A wrote:I think the A1(M) from Barton to Dishforth could be the last significant stretch of motorway to be built in Britain...
Is that because there won't be any new motorways built or are you referring to how long it's taking? Ba-dum tish.
Continental drift is moving faster, but logically I can see the remaining D2 sections of the A1, particularly in Yorkshire and the East Midlands, being candidates for motorway upgrades. Yet I wonder how long this will take if it is announced and a later post has mentioned this.
Problem is, environmental concerns, economic downturns and cost has seen new motorway building in England become sparse since the last big projects like the M40 extension in the early nineties. Scotland seem far less inhibited about motorways, but it's probably because their network needed plenty of infill work and the A74 was desperately in need of replacement.
Glenn A wrote:I think the A1(M) from Barton to Dishforth could be the last significant stretch of motorway to be built in Britain...
Is that because there won't be any new motorways built or are you referring to how long it's taking? Ba-dum tish.
Continental drift is moving faster, but logically I can see the remaining D2 sections of the A1, particularly in Yorkshire and the East Midlands, being candidates for motorway upgrades. Yet I wonder how long this will take if it is announced and a later post has mentioned this.
Problem is, environmental concerns, economic downturns and cost has seen new motorway building in England become sparse since the last big projects like the M40 extension in the early nineties. Scotland seem far less inhibited about motorways, but it's probably because their network needed plenty of infill work and the A74 was desperately in need of replacement.
If we keep spending billions of £’s converting the existing motorway network to smart, we don’t have any money left over for new motorways. Or other roads.
And that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for the last 10 years.
stuartf wrote:I suspect if we see any large-scale road building in the next few decades, it will be for autonomous vehicles or some other new transport infrastructure. If you look at how quickly trams appeared and disappeared in the 20th century, or the railway boom of the mid 19th century, or the vast amount of lost infrastructure that once supported coal and horse-drawn transport, another big change is possible and could happen within many of our lifetimes.
I'm fascinated by this. You could make a relief road easier and cheaper to build by building it to a very low standard, and then open it to autonomous vehicles only. Everyone would benefit from the increased capacity but clearly there would be an incentive to go autonomous and have a choice of routes.
I agree that this is what'll happen. Electric motoring will take over in the next few years, and autonomous driving technology will follow shortly after. Sad as it sounds, I think 'driving' will become a sport in the same way that shooting or pilotting have - essentially, we'll become driving hobbyists. You can see the first steps in the Tesla/Uber model now of being able to order a taxi; I suspect something will exist along the lines of a driverless taxi that you'll order through your personal assistant at home (Alexa/Google Home as we have it now). You'll join a convoy of driverless cars to your destination that's door-to-door, but the convoy allows us to move around optimally.
Sounds like a nightmare to many but I do believe kids that are born now, or have even been around a few years, will never need to learn to drive. And I honestly think we'll see the biggest changes over the next ten years, so it's not that far away.
To that end, I think that HS2 will be out of date by the time it's delivered. We'll either have door-to-door using the driverless model, or Hyperloop will've been proven.
To that end, roads aren't out of date, and as stuartf and Johnathan have said, roads may be built for autonomous vehicles only. That'll mean the adaptation of our network to allow autonomous vehicles only on most routes.
That, and cycle lanes!
I somewhat agree with all that. However, I’m not so sure about HS2 becoming outmoded. For example, I could set off to Scotland, right now, in my own car. But it would take at least 6 hours (accidents notwithstanding).
Once HS2 is open, it may take an hour or so to reach the nearest available station, and then about half the usual journey time by rail. So that’s saving a good two hours at least.
One thing I’m not so sure about. In the smart/autonomous driving world of the future, will the road network contract a little?? Will only certain roads be maintained, and others fall into disuse?? Thinking about how people bang on about motorways, you might forget that many major A-roads, whilst having been detrunked are still locally/regionally important.
Good examples of this are the A47/A15. Though they’ll probably still survive.
Berk wrote: In the smart/autonomous driving world of the future, will the road network contract a little?? Will only certain roads be maintained, and others fall into disuse?? Thinking about how people bang on about motorways, you might forget that many major A-roads, whilst having been detrunked are still locally/regionally important..
The vast majority of the public live off minor roads, and so these are important to those residents. I can't see anyway that the road network as a whole will contract. Ok, maybe less Trunk/Primary/A/B roads, but whatever they are called the local roads will still need to be maintained.
Burns wrote:
Is that because there won't be any new motorways built or are you referring to how long it's taking? Ba-dum tish.
Continental drift is moving faster, but logically I can see the remaining D2 sections of the A1, particularly in Yorkshire and the East Midlands, being candidates for motorway upgrades. Yet I wonder how long this will take if it is announced and a later post has mentioned this.
Problem is, environmental concerns, economic downturns and cost has seen new motorway building in England become sparse since the last big projects like the M40 extension in the early nineties. Scotland seem far less inhibited about motorways, but it's probably because their network needed plenty of infill work and the A74 was desperately in need of replacement.
If we keep spending billions of £’s converting the existing motorway network to smart, we don’t have any money left over for new motorways. Or other roads.
And that’s exactly what we’ve been doing for the last 10 years.
lotrjw wrote:I have to disagree, motorways dont always go the way you want them to and having two use a similar route creates a redundancy.
You'd be one of the first to complain if you were stuck on that road after a fatal accident, with only single carriageways as an alternative. You can't have it both ways.
"Accuse the other side of that which you are guilty."
- some extreme-right nutcase
lotrjw wrote:I have to disagree, motorways dont always go the way you want them to and having two use a similar route creates a redundancy.
You'd be one of the first to complain if you were stuck on that road after a fatal accident, with only single carriageways as an alternative. You can't have it both ways.
I meant have more than one motorway route not a single carriageway route as an alternative.
Where I live for example to go north I can use the M5 or the M40 as they are both about a similar distance away. However to get to either by other motorways means a lengthy trip around, the quickest routes are A roads, if they were motorways it would be much simpler even if they were D2M not D3M.
If going from London to Birmingham you can use either the M40/M42 route or the M1/M6 route, thats very good redundancy and drivers can choose the best option for where they are heading.
With just one smart motorway if an accident happened that grinds the motorway to a crawl, with two motorways, as long as there is reasonable link roads you can switch to the other eg th A43 is ok as a link between the M40 and the M1 its not perfect with the amount of roundabouts, but alright if you need to get across.
Of course there is some places that are quieter and 1 motorway is ok, they are the ones not being smartified though, eg the M6 through the Lake District.
Speaking of ‘good redundancy’, I’m surprised that there hasn’t been a second Midlands to North West route proposed lately (some options were considered in the 1980s and ‘90s). As many Sabristri will be aware, the M6 through Staffordshire and Cheshire is a complete mare for traffic.
Personally, I’d have sent the M40 north towards the M53 and constructed an M63 betwixt the M1 in the Derby-Nottingham region and the M60 or the M56.
My idea is to (1) take the Birmingham-Merseyside traffic away from the M6, (2) keep the M6 largely for Brum-Manchester and longer distance traffic to destinations further north and (3) get South East-Manchester traffic away from the M6.
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
McNessA720 wrote:My idea is to (1) take the Birmingham-Merseyside traffic away from the M6, (2) keep the M6 largely for Brum-Manchester and longer distance traffic to destinations further north and (3) get South East-Manchester traffic away from the M6.
I thought those were the reasons the M6 was overloaded??
That M64 idea (North-West - M1) mightn’t be such a bad idea after all.
I'd support the A1 being converted to D3M from London to Morpeth, as this would make it an alternative to the M1 to the North East and would speed up journeys by removing the last of the roundabouts and prohibit vehicles like tractors. Also I'd consider converting outdated and congested D2s like the A12 from Ipswich to London to D3M and extend the M2 to Canterbury.
Glenn A wrote:I'd support the A1 being converted to D3M from London to Morpeth, as this would make it an alternative to the M1 to the North East and would speed up journeys by removing the last of the roundabouts and prohibit vehicles like tractors. Also I'd consider converting outdated and congested D2s like the A12 from Ipswich to London to D3M and extend the M2 to Canterbury.
I’d advocate a large-scale upgrade of the A1 too.
However, I’d number it something like M10, as Ax(M) numbers should really be reserved for urban motorways and town bypasses.
By ‘London’, do you mean the M25 where the present A1(M) terminates or are you proposing we extend the A1(M) towards Central London?
"I see the face of a child. He lives in a great city. He is black. Or he is white. He is Mexican, Italian, Polish. None of that matters. What matters, he's an American child"
- Richard Nixon
Glenn A wrote:I'd support the A1 being converted to D3M from London to Morpeth, as this would make it an alternative to the M1 to the North East and would speed up journeys by removing the last of the roundabouts and prohibit vehicles like tractors. Also I'd consider converting outdated and congested D2s like the A12 from Ipswich to London to D3M and extend the M2 to Canterbury.
I’d advocate a large-scale upgrade of the A1 too.
However, I’d number it something like M10, as Ax(M) numbers should really be reserved for urban motorways and town bypasses.
By ‘London’, do you mean the M25 where the present A1(M) terminates or are you proposing we extend the A1(M) towards Central London?
I would say have the 'A1(M)' (under the M10 designation), start from the M1 not the M25, obviously taking it further than that would be next to impossible without knocking down parts of London, but it could certainly make it to Scratchwood on the M1 no problem.
lotrjw wrote:
I would say have the 'A1(M)' (under the M10 designation), start from the M1 not the M25, obviously taking it further than that would be next to impossible without knocking down parts of London, but it could certainly make it to Scratchwood on the M1 no problem.
How would that work and what advantage would it bring ?
I suppose you could build the originally planned link from the A1 to the M1 at Scratchwood but at the end of the day the M1 still drops you in the middle of the unholy mess that is Staples Corner. Personally I always used to either leave the M1 at Junction 2 where I had the choice of joining the North Circular at Golders Green or following the A1 down to Archway or exit at Junction 4 using the A41 into Central London.
