A1 Darrington to Redhouse

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Chris5156
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Chris5156 »

Sorry, Berk, but I'm not having any of this!
Berk wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 00:52
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 00:35
Berk wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 22:56Darrington wouldn’t merit a junction then?? So, how is one supposed to turn off there?? You might be able to hit the LAR coming from the north, but from the south??
No, Darrington wouldn't merit a junction with an upgraded A1(M), any more than any other village on an unclassified road would.
It’s amazing how some people can take a stance this is a brand new motorway that has never existed before - and therefore doesn’t need any junctions.

Of course you’re not going to have direct access, or junctions everywhere, but there are so few of them on the A1(M), it looks like a deliberate choice not to have them.
One of the problems with the existing A1 is the number of local access points. You don't fix that by re-creating the same problem on its replacement. So yes, it is a deliberate choice not to have them.

If you upgrade the A1 to a motorway you are creating a high speed route for strategic traffic. Local junction-hopping between villages, of the sort that happens out of necessity on the current A1, has no business there. It would be impossible to justify a junction for Darrington on economic, social or town planning grounds. The A1(M) has a small number of widely-spaced junctions because that is the right way to design a rural trunk road motorway.
At least, not any closer than 10 miles. 5 miles might’ve been more appropriate. The motorway grew out of the trunk road, it wasn’t purpose-built (like the M1, M6 etc.).
J38 and J40 are less than 8 miles apart, so a motorway upgrade between them, with an intermediate junction in the vicinity of Barnsdale Bar, will put the interchanges 4 miles apart. That's quite close enough and closer, indeed, than you're asking for.
There’s actually a very good reason for having a junction close by. Pontefract does not have an A1(M) junction. The only junction it has is J32 M62 (or 33 at a pinch). So it would provide more choice, and avoid a circuitous way round.
Pontefract is served by M62 J32, the A162 at Knottingley and the A639 at Barnsdale Bar. There are free-flowing connections from the A1 in both directions to M62 J32; from either direction it is a speedy journey through M62 J33 to the A162 interchange at Knottingley; and if you're approaching from the south you're highly likely to leave the A1 at Barnsdale Bar.

If you built a new junction at Darrington, you'd need to build a new road to Pontefract from there. No significant amount of traffic leaves the A1 at Darrington to get to Pontefract because first, in both directions, you've already passed an earlier exit that would have got you there, and second, it's an unclassified road that's largely built up. It would be a junction primarily for Darrington, which isn't remotely big enough to require one.

It's also worth asking why you think Ponte Carlo needs more motorway junctions. It has a population of about 30,000 - the same size as Bicester and about three quarters the size of Bishop's Stortford. Those places have just one junction on the strategic network and manage OK with it. Why does Pontefract need a fourth?
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Chris5156 wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 22:14
KeithW wrote: Thu Nov 28, 2019 21:00Darrington is J40 as I recall and Barnsdale Bar is J39
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... _Junctions
No, Barnsdale Bar doesn't have a junction number - it might be the obvious place for J39, but no J39 has ever been allocated on the A1. There's just a gap between 38 and 40. The page you linked to on the wiki makes no mention of J39.

If and when the Red House - Darrington motorway upgrade happens, there's likely to be just one intermediate junction somewhere around Barnsdale Bar, which would surely be J39. But right now the number is not used and doesn't appear on signs or maps.
It has a junction right now which happens to be between 38 and 40 but yes there is no number on the sign. In all probability an upgrade would not include a junction for Darrington but then I would expect it to be accessed by a LAR as happened when the A1 was upgraded north of Darrington. Given that neither the Wentbridge or Darrington bridges are wide enough for a D3(M) motorway I would expect this section to be an offline upgrade with the current A1 becoming the A162
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Berk wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 00:52 It’s amazing how some people can take a stance this is a brand new motorway that has never existed before - and therefore doesn’t need any junctions.

Of course you’re not going to have direct access, or junctions everywhere, but there are so few of them on the A1(M), it looks like a deliberate choice not to have them.

At least, not any closer than 10 miles. 5 miles might’ve been more appropriate. The motorway grew out of the trunk road, it wasn’t purpose-built (like the M1, M6 etc.).

There’s actually a very good reason for having a junction close by. Pontefract does not have an A1(M) junction. The only junction it has is J32 M62 (or 33 at a pinch). So it would provide more choice, and avoid a circuitous way round.
I would expect Redhouse to Darrington to be at least in part an offline upgrade not least because the bridges at Wentbridge and Darrington are just not wide enough to take a D3(M) motorway. North of Darrington the old A1 was retained and downgraded to the A162 which is pretty much what I would expect to happen between Darrington and Barnsdale Bar. A new junction at Barnsdale Bar would I think be justifiable to provide access to Pontefract from the south via the A639. From the north access via M62 J32 is fine.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Pontelad »

Just a local perspective.

When travelling south on the A1, using M62 J32 or J33 is fine if you live at that side of town. However, Ponte is so heavily congested that it's really not an option unless and until the South East Link Road is built for the majority that live on the other side of town. I do however see that a junction at Darrington would be odd.

From the south, vast improvement is needed to the first bit of the A639. If you've ever driven it, you'll know it's like a trip to Alton Towers with all the carriageway subsidence.

As to why Ponte Carlo needs so many junctions: It's already got 3 railway stations and is the centre of the universe, so why not :D
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

Pontelad wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:32 Just a local perspective.

When travelling south on the A1, using M62 J32 or J33 is fine if you live at that side of town. However, Ponte is so heavily congested that it's really not an option unless and until the South East Link Road is built for the majority that live on the other side of town. I do however see that a junction at Darrington would be odd.

From the south, vast improvement is needed to the first bit of the A639. If you've ever driven it, you'll know it's like a trip to Alton Towers with all the carriageway subsidence.

As to why Ponte Carlo needs so many junctions: It's already got 3 railway stations and is the centre of the universe, so why not :D
I take your point but sorting out local road problems in and around Pontefract is not the responsibility of Highways England but as I understand it that of Wakefield Metropolitan District Council. Unfortunately their transport stategy policy seems to have been last updated in 2011 and seems to essentially say 'catch a bus unless you live in Wakefield.'
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Chris Bertram »

Pontelad wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:32 Just a local perspective.

When travelling south on the A1, using M62 J32 or J33 is fine if you live at that side of town. However, Ponte is so heavily congested that it's really not an option unless and until the South East Link Road is built for the majority that live on the other side of town. I do however see that a junction at Darrington would be odd.

From the south, vast improvement is needed to the first bit of the A639. If you've ever driven it, you'll know it's like a trip to Alton Towers with all the carriageway subsidence.

As to why Ponte Carlo needs so many junctions: It's already got 3 railway stations and is the centre of the universe, so why not :D
Yeah, but Baghill Station barely has any services
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the cheesecake man
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 07:42
Pontelad wrote: Fri Nov 29, 2019 12:32 Just a local perspective.

When travelling south on the A1, using M62 J32 or J33 is fine if you live at that side of town. However, Ponte is so heavily congested that it's really not an option unless and until the South East Link Road is built for the majority that live on the other side of town. I do however see that a junction at Darrington would be odd.

From the south, vast improvement is needed to the first bit of the A639. If you've ever driven it, you'll know it's like a trip to Alton Towers with all the carriageway subsidence.

As to why Ponte Carlo needs so many junctions: It's already got 3 railway stations and is the centre of the universe, so why not :D
Yeah, but Baghill Station barely has any services
It's a painful journey however you go.
Baghill station has trains to York and Sheffield but only twice a day.
Tanshelf only has a miserable shunt about to Wakefield Kirkgate.
Monkhill is inconveniently located.
A639 is a fine Roman road but bumpy and with an unexpectedly long queue into the town centre.
Using the A1and M62 to J32 is speedy on the rare occasions there isn't a massive hold up. Upgrade to A1M is desperately needed.
But Pontefract does have the Haribo shop.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Berk »

A Haribo shop?? What’s wrong with Pontefract cakes?? :confused: :laugh:
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by TheKeymeister »

I agree that no junction is needed at Darrington and would cause too many problems with its proximity to the A162 junction. There's probably not much need for a local access road either as the A639 covers most things, the B6474 would probably need extending from Wentbridge to Darrington, either via a new road or by upgrading the single track Westfield Lane.

A Ponty outer ring road would be nice, but doubtful any time soon as it would have to be local authority (so therefore probably mostly developer) funded. It's not a massive place but as already mentioned it's a horrendous place for trying to drive around in rush hour, mainly because you have to drive in to the middle and back out again to get anywhere. Fortunately I only usually have to get to the racecourse so it's not too bad for me.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by trickstat »

Berk wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 23:20 A Haribo shop?? What’s wrong with Pontefract cakes?? :confused: :laugh:
They're made from licorice. Some of us can't stand licorice.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by TheKeymeister »

Just been studying the maps a touch more, I never realised there was a caravan site and park homes type place behind the petrol station just south of Darrington! A bridge across the A1 to Wentbridge should sort access there though, as the only access is currently via the A1 petrol station or a dirt track towards Womersley, how it ever got planning is amazing. Other than that, the two petrol stations further south would have to go, but presumably new facilities could be provided at an improved Barnsdale Bar junction.

It seems a relatively straight forward upgrade other than that, but I suppose widening the A1M between Red House and the M18 junction would need to be done at the same time, otherwise that section will get considerably worse with 3 lanes of traffic ploughing straight into it, the current crap A1 section probably does a reasonable job of metering traffic a bit.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by nowster »

trickstat wrote:
Berk wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 23:20 A Haribo shop?? What’s wrong with Pontefract cakes?? :confused: Image
They're made from licorice. Some of us can't stand licorice.
Liquorice: It gives you a good run for your money. (Spike Milligan)
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Alderpoint »

TheKeymeister wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 23:44 Just been studying the maps a touch more, I never realised there was a caravan site and park homes type place behind the petrol station just south of Darrington! A bridge across the A1 to Wentbridge should sort access there though, as the only access is currently via the A1 petrol station or a dirt track towards Womersley, how it ever got planning is amazing.
Seems also to be an access road from Darrington village, here.
Let it snow.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by KeithW »

TheKeymeister wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 23:44 Just been studying the maps a touch more, I never realised there was a caravan site and park homes type place behind the petrol station just south of Darrington! A bridge across the A1 to Wentbridge should sort access there though, as the only access is currently via the A1 petrol station or a dirt track towards Womersley, how it ever got planning is amazing. Other than that, the two petrol stations further south would have to go, but presumably new facilities could be provided at an improved Barnsdale Bar junction.

It seems a relatively straight forward upgrade other than that, but I suppose widening the A1M between Red House and the M18 junction would need to be done at the same time, otherwise that section will get considerably worse with 3 lanes of traffic ploughing straight into it, the current crap A1 section probably does a reasonable job of metering traffic a bit.

That would be a considerably more challenging job than the Redhouse Darrington section. For one thing the M18-A1(M) merge is a major source of delays but rather more significantly widening the Don Bridge isnt really possible now that comcrete barriers have been installed to stop any more vehicles going through the railings into the river.

https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/la ... -1-7820270
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.50873 ... authuser=0

As for the A1 proper and business at Darrington etc that stretch of road has been in planning limbo for more than 25 years since the last upgrade scheme was cancelled. This is why so many of the services along it are run down and tatty, nobody is going to plough serious money in until the plans are sorted.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Pontelad »

TheKeymeister wrote: Sun Dec 01, 2019 23:02 I agree that no junction is needed at Darrington and would cause too many problems with its proximity to the A162 junction. There's probably not much need for a local access road either as the A639 covers most things, the B6474 would probably need extending from Wentbridge to Darrington, either via a new road or by upgrading the single track Westfield Lane.

A Ponty outer ring road would be nice, but doubtful any time soon as it would have to be local authority (so therefore probably mostly developer) funded. It's not a massive place but as already mentioned it's a horrendous place for trying to drive around in rush hour, mainly because you have to drive in to the middle and back out again to get anywhere. Fortunately I only usually have to get to the racecourse so it's not too bad for me.
There is a plan for about 3/8 of a ring road, running from the A628 round towards Featherstone (meeting the much needed Ackworth (A628) and Featherstone (A645) bypasses) and then on to meet the A639 in the vicinity of Wickes/Mcdonalds. WMDC are discussing putting a bid in now, I won't hold my breath. If it was extended round to the A639 to the south of town, it would be a game changer for Ponte. I doubt I'll live long enough to see it happen.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by the cheesecake man »

Berk wrote: Sat Nov 30, 2019 23:20 A Haribo shop?? What’s wrong with Pontefract cakes?? :confused: :laugh:
Pontefract cakes are made in the Haribo factory and are available cheap in the Haribo shop! Along with all sorts of other sweets you never see in the shops, and large boxes ideal for Christmas presents. :thumbsup:
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by Bryn666 »

Probably shared before but here's one way it could be done.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1yLywo ... sp=sharing
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A1(M) Doncaster to Darrington

Post by thomas417 »

Can't find a thread on this scheme so thought I'd create one from today's announcement of the £40bn roads pipeline with £1.2bn going to upgrade the A1 between Doncaster and Darrington.

Not sure whether we'll get an (M) between Redhouse and Darrington but it seems likely going on previous announcements and the very obvious gap that needs filling. The scheme also includes an upgrade of the A1(M) Doncaster Bypass I presume from the M18 heading north.

Will be interesting to see how they tackle this one.
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by jackal »

Interesting bit in a TfN document showing that their assumption is that the improvement would be to motorway standard, the Doncaster bypass would be improved (rather than bypassed), and that it's all supposed to create a 'Yorkshire bypass':
A1 Doncaster to Darrington: Upgrading the A1 in Yorkshire to motorway standard, improving the notoriously congested Doncaster bypass and replacing the outdated stretch of dual carriageway between Doncaster and the M62. Coupled with improvements in the Midlands, this would create a ‘Yorkshire bypass’, allowing long distance traffic to stay off the M1 and improve conditions around Sheffield, Barnsley, Wakefield and Leeds.
https://docplayer.net/194679956-Transpo ... tem-6.html
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Re: A1 Darrington to Redhouse

Post by NICK 647063 »

Well it certainly needs sorting I live next to the A1 at Skellow and it’s very rarely free flowing during the day at all, J35 with the M18 is now ridiculous I’ve just been through this morning and even on a Sunday the traffic is stationary as so much traffic is trying to join the A1(M) northbound from the M18, I’m surprised they cannot come up with an interim solution here, you have 2 A1(M) lanes with 2 lanes joining from the M18 all usually solid with traffic, 4 into 2 just doesn’t work, it needs a much longer merge here!
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