TSGRD 1964 - Scans of?

[afarlie]

Does anyone know of a scanned copy of this which could be placed on the SABRE wiki, or other projects?

legislation.gov.uk does not hold the 1964 version. The earliest it holds is the Speed limit Signs regulations (from 1969) in B/W.

Having transcribed most of the text of the 1981 version on Wikisource from an OGL scan. I was considering going back to the start of the current system in 1964 (partly to build a Base index on which to track the diagram numbers

As a 1964 Document like this would ideally be an expired crown copyright, or at the very least OGL.

It would also be interesting if assuming compatible licenses scans of earlier working drawings or Traffic Signs Manual volumes could also be obtained. ( I don't envisage a complete republication like someone did with the BR Design Manual though )

[Bryn666]

Here you go: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx2Wsb ... p=drivesdk

You will need to tidy the PDF up to reuse it; I scanned it from glass quickly purely to ensure there was an e-copy of it.

[afarlie]

Here you go: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx2Wsb ... p=drivesdk

You will need to tidy the PDF up to reuse it; I scanned it from glass quickly purely to ensure there was an e-copy of it.

Okay.. but it should be okay to at the very least compile a list of notes from, even if the PDF can't be used directly yet.

Just one question ... What status is the scan? I am treating the contents as OGL, but the scan would need to be CC-BY-SA or simmilar to be placed on SABRE wiki/ Wikimedia Commons IIRC.
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[Bryn666]

Much like OS maps, it is crown copyright and therefore I believe now out of copyright. Steven is the one to check with though.

[Steven]

Much like OS maps, it is crown copyright and therefore I believe now out of copyright. Steven is the one to check with though.

The original document will be out of copyright, so scanning it is no problem at all.

The scans of the document however have their own copyright associated with them. It's therefore up to the person who scanned it as to whether they release it under a licence like CC; or whether they keep the rights and allow only publication rights on certain sites. As long as they say "I'm the creator and I permit it to be published on the SABRE Wiki", then we can host it here. To host it on other sites, it would have to fulfill their individual requirements. You can't assume anything on the SABRE Wiki can be reused on Wikipedia for example.

[afarlie]

Much like OS maps, it is crown copyright and therefore I believe now out of copyright. Steven is the one to check with though.

The original document will be out of copyright, so scanning it is no problem at all.

The scans of the document however have their own copyright associated with them. It's therefore up to the person who scanned it as to whether they release it under a licence like CC; or whether they keep the rights and allow only publication rights on certain sites. As long as they say "I'm the creator and I permit it to be published on the SABRE Wiki", then we can host it here. To host it on other sites, it would have to fulfill their individual requirements. You can't assume anything on the SABRE Wiki can be reused on Wikipedia for example.

Thanks. Bryn666 is very active here so could probably upload directly to SABRE wiki, Meanwhile if there's no objections from the original scan maker, I am considering doing some OCR or page extraction in the next few weeks when some other (non SABRE related) things are reaching completion, with a view to using that content on SABRE wiki.

Wikimedia Commons, typically needs the scan maker to upload, or for the maker of the scans to send in a suitable confirmation of licensing terms (typically CC-BY-SA ) , Wikimedia Commons can't accept ND or NC licenses...

Wikimedia Commons category on Traffic Signs is here -
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... ed_Kingdom

It could probably use some expert attention, but there's a general acceptance that most people here don't want to duplicate efforts between "The Roaders Digest" and some other site...

[Bryn666]

Feel free, I'm the original scanner. Keep it on SABRE though, I don't want the plagiarism planet massacring your work

[afarlie]

Feel free, I'm the original scanner. Keep it on SABRE though, I don't want the plagiarism planet massacring your work

OCR Text of the 1964 Regulations is progressing. I'll do the Directions next... and then it's a lot of work extracting JPEG of the diagrams.

Out of interest you don't have access to the pre 1977 TSM (subject to checks on copyright status) or any earlier working drawings?
I ask because I was wondering how you would draw a Z bends sign (Diagram 514 in the 1964 regulations.) in vector format.

[jonnyf90]

Feel free, I'm the original scanner. Keep it on SABRE though, I don't want the plagiarism planet massacring your work

OCR Text of the 1964 Regulations is progressing. I'll do the Directions next... and then it's a lot of work extracting JPEG of the diagrams.

Out of interest you don't have access to the pre 1977 TSM (subject to checks on copyright status) or any earlier working drawings?
I ask because I was wondering how you would draw a Z bends sign (Diagram 514 in the 1964 regulations.) in vector format.

I’ll give it a go in MS Visio tomorrow. Shouldn’t be too difficult

Cheers

[Bryn666]

I have the green TSM but it doesn't give working drawings for Z bends.

I did make a CAD version of it though based off tracing a scaled image. Not quite a vector image I appreciate.

[afarlie]

I have the green TSM but it doesn't give working drawings for Z bends.
I did make a CAD version of it though based off tracing a scaled image. Not quite a vector image I appreciate.

Hmm.. so it would be a case of finding a high quality photo and making some careful measurements..

So far I have the following approximated spec (based on the equivalent sign in the 1944 report and one photo).

Sign Height : 24"
Border width on triangle. Effectively 2 4/10" (60mm is ~ 2.36 ")
Base of Z bend symbol (I.e it's bottom right corner) is 8/10" of an inch above the border (20mm exactly is about 0.78mm), (but not sure how it's positioned horizontally..
Z Bend is angled at 35 degrees to horizontal. (per the 1944 equivalent sign)
The straight arms of the Z are 81/2 inches at their longest extent. (1944 sign)
The arms of the Z are at 45 degrees with respect to each other. (1944 sign)
Width of the Z is in 1944 (1 3/4") but may have been slightly reduced or expanded as this becomes approx 45mm when converted which seems narrow when compared to the 60mm (~2 4/10") used on Diagram513. of the 2002 regulations )

What I'm not sure about is the radius of the inner and outer fillets shown on the sign, or the centres used to construct them which would have been used in 1964. (The 2002 drawing for 513, has filleting of 50mm (~2") on the outer corners of the bends in it's drawing, but not on the internal ones)

[jonnyf90]

Not sure if this is what you're after but I think it's pretty close!

I also have a svg file which can be downloaded from onedrive HERE
Here is the construction process, pretty much tracing over the source image from the scan:

Cheers

[c2R]

This thread has got a remastered version of it attached to a google drive: viewtopic.php?t=35931

[afarlie]

Not sure if this is what you're after but I think it's pretty close!
Series of Bends 1964.png

I also have a svg file which can be downloaded from onedrive HERE
Here is the construction process, pretty much tracing over the source image from the scan:

z bend construction.jpg

Cheers

That's indeed what I thought, and it matches fairly closely to my own estimations by a similar process.

The respective angle being 33 degrees by a quick estimation?

In the absence of an 'official' working drawing, someone else has drawn what I was wanting already, so there's no need for me to loose sleep over it.

[afarlie]

Not sure if this is what you're after but I think it's pretty close!
Series of Bends 1964.png

I also have a svg file which can be downloaded from onedrive HERE
Here is the construction process, pretty much tracing over the source image from the scan:

z bend construction.jpg

Cheers

That's indeed what I thought, and it matches fairly closely to my own estimations by a similar process.

The respective angle being 33 degrees by a quick estimation?

In the absence of an 'official' working drawing, someone else has drawn what I was wanting already, so there's no need for me to loose sleep over it.

On the signs I'd been drawing myself, I'd used a different approach to making the triangle itself (using a new path effect in a Beta of Inkscape called Fillet/Chamfer that make adding rounded corners rather easy...)

[jonnyf90]

Yes, 33 degrees for the slanted lines.
The rounded corners are what would be "stroke" in Photoshop. Visio just calls it "line", with a weight of 160 points (in relation to the 24inch sided triangle)

[Berk]

These diagram drawings made me think about where/when they originated. Because the ‘elements’ (not sure how else you describe the directional diagrams themselves) appear not to have changed much since the Irish TSRGD of 1926.


So essentially, the ‘series of bends’, or ‘junction on the left’ were unchanged from up to 40 years earlier.

[DavidNW9]

Here is the even rarer post-war manual but we have them all on the Flickr group, a member here also has copies he can add.

https://www.flickr.com/groups/97272861@ ... 918140102/

[Bryn666]

But does anyone have a 1957 TSRGD?

[wrinkly]

But does anyone have a 1957 TSRGD?

Is anyone a current student or employee of Leeds University? The libraries there have bound volumes of statutory instruments going back a long way.

I'm a former employee and continued to use the library a bit after my retirement, but my card was superseded by new tech and I haven't got round to enquiring about renewing my access.