M11 Jct 8 to 9 ? does it needs widening

[Osthagen]

Given that the Expressway concept is now supposed to have motorway regulations and numbering, I would vote for the M35 Winchester to Cambridge motorway

We dont have an M34 so why not that? Seeing as it would be replacing the A34!

I think Chris’s logic behind the M35 mumber was that it would have symmetry with the M25 (with which it shares a last digit). Much as the planned M15 would have done.

[c2R]

Hi!

How difficult would it be to add a dumbbell interchange on the M11 where the B1383 passes over it a couple of miles south of Newport?

Chris Williams

Not difficult at all. You’d just have to modify the existing police entrances.

That's a different location - Chris is talking about the bridge where the B1383 (former A11) goes over the M11, not the underpass where the B1038 goes under the M11.

The B1383 bridge wouldn't be particularly difficult to convert - there's plenty of space for some sliproads here: https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.95986 ... 312!8i6656

The only real issue is that it is doubtful how much use it would be without a relief road around Newport.


Even if it were the B1038, it would be slightly more difficult than just modification of the existing slip roads - the entrances would need considerable modification to convert them to avoid the sharp corners that are currently present, and long acceleration/deceleration lanes would be required owing to the very high AADT levels - a compact GSJ wouldn't really cut it. The B1038 itself is inadequate in either direction for more traffic, and particularly in the direction of Newport where it is very narrow with lots of parked cars and school traffic. For this to be viable, a new western bypass of Newport would in all likelihood be required, along with a southern bypass of Saffron Walden to allow access to the industrial areas.

[Osthagen]

Ah. Maps on the iPhone was giving me the wrong number, it seems.

[A9NWIL]

Given that the Expressway concept is now supposed to have motorway regulations and numbering, I would vote for the M35 Winchester to Cambridge motorway

We dont have an M34 so why not that? Seeing as it would be replacing the A34!

I think Chris’s logic behind the M35 mumber was that it would have symmetry with the M25 (with which it shares a last digit). Much as the planned M15 would have done.

In that case it could continue along the A14 to Felixstowe and the rest of the A14 along with the M11 could become either the M6 or the M14, M6 would be my favourite as along with the A74(M)/M74 the M6 would become Britain's longest motorway! In fact if it got taken up the M73, M80, M9, A9 route to Inverness it would be a whopper!

The M35 could in theory cross the M3 taking a more direct southeasterly route to the current M27/A27, then take over that and work its way round the south cost to Dover, then on Margate.
Technically the M35 would be out of zone, but if it shares a pattern with the M25 in being a loose route around London then it wouldnt matter.

Perhaps the M45 could be expanded eastwards and westwards, then southwards, so it say goes via Peterborough and Norwich to Great Yarmouth in the East. In the west and southwest it could make its way to the M42/M40 junction, take over the M42's southern leg, then follow the M5 down to Exeter. Of course that would obliterate the M5 almost entirely! So it might as well have whats left renumbered!

I suppose the A50 could become the M55 ring motorway? the M62 renumbered as M65? The M55 is currently used so that would need to change to M555 instead.
Then it stops as we run out of Mx5 numbers!

Sorry thats a little off topic, but thats taking the concept to the next level! Only thing missing is an M15 then!

[crb11]

I see what yo mean about the M11 perhaps between junctions 11 and 12 northbound there needs to be D4M or even D5M! Then at junction 12 a lane drop or even 2 if you have D5M. That would allow 3 lanes of mostly free traffic to bypass the problems of J12.

The A11/M11 junction sounds like it needs M11 north/A11 connections, shouldnt be too hard to do its open land after all.

I agree the idea of a Winchester to Cambridge expressway would need a new route around Oxford thats D3 at least maybe D3M, perhaps to the west of where it currently is. Then a link road that creates a new southern motorway bypass of Oxford from the line of the A34 (or if a more western route was built from that), to the M40.

Adding the missing link at the M11/A11 junction doesn't seem like a massive benefit to me and you risk introducing a weaving issue - you're only providing access to the A1301 and B1383 south of Stump Cross (for anything further up you'd use the A505) and the A505/A1301 route is fairly reasonable most of the time. For people making this journey and many others you'd be better off spending less money improving the A505/A1301 junction, perhaps making it a GSJ with the A505 becoming freeflow.

Further north, I think the problem in the peaks is perhaps more the junctions themselves. None of the three offslips at junctions 12 and 13 is really equipped to handle as much traffic as they get, but then neither are the A603 and A1303 they link to. (The latter has been crippled by the new junctions for the Eddington estate as well. I'm glad I no longer have to go anywhere near there in the rush hours.)

[Scratchwood]

Back to the original question, yes the section between 8 and 9 does need to be D3M. Indeed it seems strange that it was never built like that from the start.

I compare it to the start of the M5 at Exeter, where two D2 expressways join together to form a D3M motorway, whereas on the M11 we have a D2 expressway and a D2M joining together as a D2M motorway instead.

[c2R]

Back to the original question, yes the section between 8 and 9 does need to be D3M. Indeed it seems strange that it was never built like that from the start.

There was never anyone on any of it when it only went as far as Stump Cross and the M25 was just a distant dream.

It now has a massive amount of freight from the channel Ports heading towards the north. Before the Channel Tunnel and M25 the pressure on the London to Norwich trunk road just didn't exist - look at the road that it replaced, winding through villages like the Chesterfords and towns like Bishop's Stortford and Epping...

[KeithW]

Back to the original question, yes the section between 8 and 9 does need to be D3M. Indeed it seems strange that it was never built like that from the start.

I compare it to the start of the M5 at Exeter, where two D2 expressways join together to form a D3M motorway, whereas on the M11 we have a D2 expressway and a D2M joining together as a D2M motorway instead.

Before the A1/M1 link road aka A14 was built the M11 was a pretty quiet road. Even on a friday rush hour the only place you used to hit heavy traffic was the merge from the A14 to the A1 at Alconbury. Those who claim the A1(M) there is over engineered never sat in a 3 mile queue of cars waiting to merge on to the D2 A1. Of course the fact that Stansted was just a local regional airport was a factor too. The standing joke was one local saying to another ' Hey look there is something in the sky is it a bird or superman ? There are no planes scheduled today so it cant be one of them'

The biggest problem in the 80's was watching your speed. The temptation to put your foot down was great but that was the first road in the UK where I saw unmarked police cars touting for business not to mention plod sitting on motorway overpasses with a speed gun. Duxford was a favourite spot as I recall. It was the opening of the M11 that prompted me to start using the M11/A1 route when heading from East London to the NE instead of hacking round the North Circular to the M1.

[Berk]

Before the A1/M1 link road aka A14 was built the M11 was a pretty quiet road. Even on a friday rush hour the only place you used to hit heavy traffic was the merge from the A14 to the A1 at Alconbury. Those who claim the A1(M) there is over engineered never sat in a 3 mile queue of cars waiting to merge on to the D2 A1.

That’s what I always thought (and still do). I have been in those Friday night queues myself, and they were miserable.

This was during my schooldays, when I commuted to Cambridge quite a bit.

[owen b]

Back to the original question, yes the section between 8 and 9 does need to be D3M. Indeed it seems strange that it was never built like that from the start.

There was never anyone on any of it when it only went as far as Stump Cross and the M25 was just a distant dream.

That was a period of only about three months as it was extended to Stump Cross (J9) in November 1979 and all the way to J14 in February 1980 according to cbrd : http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/chronology/1980

It seems to me that the whole of M11 J8-J14 is a good candidate for hard shoulder running.

[Berk]

Although you’re probably right, it smacks of cheapness. Much like the decision to build it as D2M in the first place.

[Scratchwood]

Back to the original question, yes the section between 8 and 9 does need to be D3M. Indeed it seems strange that it was never built like that from the start.

I compare it to the start of the M5 at Exeter, where two D2 expressways join together to form a D3M motorway, whereas on the M11 we have a D2 expressway and a D2M joining together as a D2M motorway instead.

Before the A1/M1 link road aka A14 was built the M11 was a pretty quiet road. Even on a friday rush hour the only place you used to hit heavy traffic was the merge from the A14 to the A1 at Alconbury. Those who claim the A1(M) there is over engineered never sat in a 3 mile queue of cars waiting to merge on to the D2 A1. Of course the fact that Stansted was just a local regional airport was a factor too. The standing joke was one local saying to another ' Hey look there is something in the sky is it a bird or superman ? There are no planes scheduled today so it cant be one of them'

The biggest problem in the 80's was watching your speed. The temptation to put your foot down was great but that was the first road in the UK where I saw unmarked police cars touting for business not to mention plod sitting on motorway overpasses with a speed gun. Duxford was a favourite spot as I recall. It was the opening of the M11 that prompted me to start using the M11/A1 route when heading from East London to the NE instead of hacking round the North Circular to the M1.

A lot of the developments in the area aren't new though, it would have been known that together they would increase M11 traffic.

The decision to turn Stansted into a significant airport was taken in 1984, clearly that would lead to a lot of extra traffic from both directions.
Even before the A14, the M11/A604 connection to the A1 was a useful connection to the north from London (and indeed Kent), especially with the rubbish bit of A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon. Indeed if the Huntingdon section had been upgraded to Motorway standard, it would surely have become the default route.
http://www.pathetic.org.uk/secretive/a14m/maps/
Now the A11 is a high quality route to Norfolk, the M11/A11 route is the obvious way. 30 years ago, the A11 was far slower, so alternatives such as using the A12 and A140 would have been attractive

[owen b]

Although you’re probably right, it smacks of cheapness. Much like the decision to build it as D2M in the first place.

The alternative way of looking at it is to say that providing D2M at a time when the country was not far off broke (cf. IMF bailout 1976) was extravagant. In my teens (1980s) I was driven up and down the M11 J8-14 many times and while there was some elephant racing I don't recall it ever being congested. It could easily have been built as plain old D2 without the cost of a hard shoulder (as the contemporaneous nearby Cambridge northern bypass was and many other strategic routes too) which would have sufficed for several decades. As it is, 40 years later we have a nice empty hard shoulder which could relatively straightforwardly be converted into a running lane.

[KeithW]

That was a period of only about three months as it was extended to Stump Cross (J9) in November 1979 and all the way to J14 in February 1980 according to cbrd : http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/chronology/1980

It seems to me that the whole of M11 J8-J14 is a good candidate for hard shoulder running.

Given the increasing levels of congestion due to local traffic for Cambridge I am not entirely sold on hard shoulder running north of J10. At rush hour its quite common to find long lines of traffic waiting to get off at junctions 11,12 and 13. J13 is especially bad, When it opened the Madingley road was little more than a quiet surburban road with the main development being the University Observatory. Now there are high tech Industrial developments on both sides of the road, a Park and Ride site and the very large Cambridge West development is going ahead. The existing junction leads to a set of traffic lights on the A1303 which is now totally inadequate. Traffic queues back on the M11 to J12 and there is no exit from the M11 southbound which results in traffic going down to J12, over the M11 and then rejoining northbound which simply makes the queue even longer.

[A9NWIL]

That was a period of only about three months as it was extended to Stump Cross (J9) in November 1979 and all the way to J14 in February 1980 according to cbrd : http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/chronology/1980

It seems to me that the whole of M11 J8-J14 is a good candidate for hard shoulder running.

Given the increasing levels of congestion due to local traffic for Cambridge I am not entirely sold on hard shoulder running north of J10. At rush hour its quite common to find long lines of traffic waiting to get off at junctions 11,12 and 13. J13 is especially bad, When it opened the Madingley road was little more than a quiet surburban road with the main development being the University Observatory. Now there are high tech Industrial developments on both sides of the road, a Park and Ride site and the very large Cambridge West development is going ahead. The existing junction leads to a set of traffic lights on the A1303 which is now totally inadequate. Traffic queues back on the M11 to J12 and there is no exit from the M11 southbound which results in traffic going down to J12, over the M11 and then rejoining northbound which simply makes the queue even longer.

Shame the government cant force a local council to sort out roads that affect the strategic road network that are in local hands!

[Johnathan404]

Shame the government cant force a local council to sort out roads that affect the strategic road network that are in local hands!

Redbridge Roundabout? A3024?

[KeithW]

A lot of the developments in the area aren't new though, it would have been known that together they would increase M11 traffic.

The decision to turn Stansted into a significant airport was taken in 1984, clearly that would lead to a lot of extra traffic from both directions.
Even before the A14, the M11/A604 connection to the A1 was a useful connection to the north from London (and indeed Kent), especially with the rubbish bit of A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon. Indeed if the Huntingdon section had been upgraded to Motorway standard, it would surely have become the default route.

Well given that the M11 was completed in 1980 expecting the planners to foresee decisions taken in the 80's and 90's is a little unreasonable.

As for being a useful route as I used it regularly I was rather aware of that but its only a default route if you start out in East London or the Dartford Crossing. When I moved from Kent to the Wembley Area in 1984 it was really much easier to use the M1. That said the M11 was still far from overcrowded. Our major software providers were in Cambridge so I got to know the route to their offices rather well (A1/A505/M11). In fact even today north of Stump Cross AADF drops to around 40k. The real problem from there to Girton is the poor quality of J11,12 and 13 which cause traffic to queue back on to the M11. If you want to improve the traffic flow look at the junctions first.

http://www.pathetic.org.uk/secretive/a14m/maps/
Now the A11 is a high quality route to Norfolk, the M11/A11 route is the obvious way. 30 years ago, the A11 was far slower, so alternatives such as using the A12 and A140 would have been attractive

Sure the M11/A11 is a great way to get to Norwich but its not going to increase the traffic on the M11 north of J9. By all means look at all lane running south of J9 but that is not a solution to the problems farther north IMHO.

[KeithW]

That was a period of only about three months as it was extended to Stump Cross (J9) in November 1979 and all the way to J14 in February 1980 according to cbrd : http://www.cbrd.co.uk/motorway/chronology/1980

It seems to me that the whole of M11 J8-J14 is a good candidate for hard shoulder running.

Given the increasing levels of congestion due to local traffic for Cambridge I am not entirely sold on hard shoulder running north of J10. At rush hour its quite common to find long lines of traffic waiting to get off at junctions 11,12 and 13. J13 is especially bad, When it opened the Madingley road was little more than a quiet surburban road with the main development being the University Observatory. Now there are high tech Industrial developments on both sides of the road, a Park and Ride site and the very large Cambridge West development is going ahead. The existing junction leads to a set of traffic lights on the A1303 which is now totally inadequate. Traffic queues back on the M11 to J12 and there is no exit from the M11 southbound which results in traffic going down to J12, over the M11 and then rejoining northbound which simply makes the queue even longer.

Shame the government cant force a local council to sort out roads that affect the strategic road network that are in local hands!

The problems are theirs in the form of the substandard junctions on the M11. The local council built a major park and ride on the Madingley road to cut down traffic into the city but first you have to get to it which is NOT easy. Try plotting a route into there coming southbound along the M11. Hint there is no exit at J13 heading southbound and no on slip heading north. In fact with a southbound slip you could run a lane directly into the Park and Ride as was done at J11. Take a look at Google Maps and you will see the outline for the roads that will serve the houses, offices and shopping centre planned for the area. Junction 13 is a poster boy for pathetic junctions . It comes off the M11 on a slip road and dumps you onto a traffic light controlled T junction which is basically unchanged since 1980.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21441 ... authuser=0

I am not blaming the planners in 1980 for this but Highways England missed a major opportunity to fix this while the A14 upgrade was happening and I know it was raised by Cambridge County Council.

[Scratchwood]

A lot of the developments in the area aren't new though, it would have been known that together they would increase M11 traffic.

The decision to turn Stansted into a significant airport was taken in 1984, clearly that would lead to a lot of extra traffic from both directions.
Even before the A14, the M11/A604 connection to the A1 was a useful connection to the north from London (and indeed Kent), especially with the rubbish bit of A1 between Baldock and Huntingdon. Indeed if the Huntingdon section had been upgraded to Motorway standard, it would surely have become the default route.

Well given that the M11 was completed in 1980 expecting the planners to foresee decisions taken in the 80's and 90's is a little unreasonable.

As for being a useful route as I used it regularly I was rather aware of that but its only a default route if you start out in East London or the Dartford Crossing. When I moved from Kent to the Wembley Area in 1984 it was really much easier to use the M1. That said the M11 was still far from overcrowded. Our major software providers were in Cambridge so I got to know the route to their offices rather well (A1/A505/M11). In fact even today north of Stump Cross AADF drops to around 40k. The real problem from there to Girton is the poor quality of J11,12 and 13 which cause traffic to queue back on to the M11. If you want to improve the traffic flow look at the junctions first.

http://www.pathetic.org.uk/secretive/a14m/maps/
Now the A11 is a high quality route to Norfolk, the M11/A11 route is the obvious way. 30 years ago, the A11 was far slower, so alternatives such as using the A12 and A140 would have been attractive

Sure the M11/A11 is a great way to get to Norwich but its not going to increase the traffic on the M11 north of J9. By all means look at all lane running south of J9 but that is not a solution to the problems farther north IMHO.

Agreed, but then I wasn't arguing that then whole section needed to be widened, just (as the thread starter suggested) between J8 and J9, due to the combination of factors affecting both legs after J9

[A9NWIL]

The problems are theirs in the form of the substandard junctions on the M11. The local council built a major park and ride on the Madingley road to cut down traffic into the city but first you have to get to it which is NOT easy. Try plotting a route into there coming southbound along the M11. Hint there is no exit at J13 heading southbound and no on slip heading north. In fact with a southbound slip you could run a lane directly into the Park and Ride as was done at J11. Take a look at Google Maps and you will see the outline for the roads that will serve the houses, offices and shopping centre planned for the area. Junction 13 is a poster boy for pathetic junctions . It comes off the M11 on a slip road and dumps you onto a traffic light controlled T junction which is basically unchanged since 1980.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.21441 ... authuser=0

I am not blaming the planners in 1980 for this but Highways England missed a major opportunity to fix this while the A14 upgrade was happening and I know it was raised by Cambridge County Council.

I would have thought that the local council are responsible for the junction above the M11 on the A1303? Round by my way my local council are just coming to the end of a job on a motorway junction on their patch and have plans for another. Yes they arent responsible for the motorway but it involved altering the slip roads somewhat so the off slips could both have 4 stacking lanes onto the junction.

So my point is that Cambridge should be working on the A1303 and the top of the slips and HE should be working on the M11 to widen it to D3M and both should be working to put the south facing slips in.

Also if your suggesting there be a lane off a new south exit slip, then there should also be something taken directly off the northbound exit slip too!