Gaps in the motorway system: how they cope?

[Chris5156]

Other than the bit opened in 1963?

I don’t really count the Dartford Tunnel, not least for the fact it only offered a D2 crossing, and the motorway was already D3 either side, as built.

The Department of Transport did. The twin-bore Dartford tunnels were supposed to carry the full load of the M25 under the Thames, and the construction of the QEII Bridge was a very rushed change of plan when demand turned out to be higher than expected and the East London River Crossing was cancelled.

You seem to be saying you don't consider the M25 to have been finished until 1991 because of a widening scheme on a road that is not part of the M25.

[Berk]

Yes, I am. It’s a little bit like suggesting the M3 was complete once it reached Winchester. And that quaint old bypass they used to have. That was under-capacity too.

And to be honest, it does no credit to presume the A282 isn’t an extension of the M25, it supports it 24/7.

Then again, it’s hard to predict future traffic flows, so all things being equal, the demand may not have been forecast.

[Chris5156]

Yes, I am. It’s a little bit like suggesting the M3 was complete once it reached Winchester. And that quaint old bypass they used to have. That was under-capacity too.

But it wasn't complete when it reached Winchester. Not only was the M3 planned to eventually go to Southampton from the late 1960s onwards, a line was actually fixed for the motorway to the south side of Winchester in 1973, before the motorway had opened as far as Popham. So when the road eventually reached Winchester nobody thought the M3 was complete. It wasn't. So no, it's not like suggesting the M3 was complete when it reached Winchester, because the M3 wasn't complete when it reached Winchester, but the M25 was officially considered complete in 1986.

Then again, it’s hard to predict future traffic flows, so all things being equal, the demand may not have been forecast.

That's the story of the whole of the M25 and A282. The demand wasn't forecast, and in the case of the Dartford Crossing specifically, further crossings to the west (specifically and most importantly the ELRC) were supposed to remove a huge amount of demand and relieve it of suburban traffic. When that didn't happen the crossing had to be expanded. But we can only see that now with the benefit of hindsight, with the induced demand and the cancellation of other road schemes a matter of historical record. In 1986, the Dartford Tunnel had twin two-lane bores, the DTp considered the motorway finished, and there is a wealth of documentary evidence that no further expansion at Dartford was considered necessary to support the M25. Everything that happened after that date was widening work.

The other way to look at it is this: if Dartford wasn't finished until it reached its current width, does that mean anything is finished if there is still widening to do? Capacity is still being added to the M25 with, for example, a scheme in the works to provide four lanes through junction 11. Is the M25 finished yet or does that bit have to be widened before it's "finished"?

[Glenn A]

Before the M40 was extended from Oxford to Birmingham to meet the M42, the A34 was a complete slog as there were few sections of D2 and you had to drive through Banbury and Stratford. Unbelievably, this was the main link between Oxford and Birmingham until 1991, and also had added pressures from traffic travelling from Southampton docks to the Midlands.

[SteveA30]

I believe the Oxford to the Stratford area section of A34 took the official Guinness Book of Records title for longest UK traffic jam circa 1986, from the A30 which had held it since 1970. Approx 40 miles. I don't have the relevant edition, just recall reading it somewhere. The A30 record still held in the 1980 edition, which I do have.

(the A423 went through Banbury, not A34)

[Robert Kilcoyne]

Before the M40 was extended from Oxford to Birmingham to meet the M42, the A34 was a complete slog as there were few sections of D2 and you had to drive through Banbury and Stratford. Unbelievably, this was the main link between Oxford and Birmingham until 1991, and also had added pressures from traffic travelling from Southampton docks to the Midlands.

The Peartree Roundabout was notorious. If we were heading towards Oxford city centre or High Wycombe, we would use the A41 through Warwick and Banbury then the A423 through Kidlington to reach the A40 Ring Road thus avoiding Peartree. If we were travelling towards Southampton or Bournemouth, we had little choice but to go via Peartree as there was (and still is) no link from the A40 to the A34 bypass. I think that I travelled only once on the old A34 (now A44 / A3400) via Stratford, Shipston and Woodstock, and that was on a coach trip to Portsmouth.

[A9NWIL]

I have more than once read that the main reason that the M25 has so many junctions is to do with planning and NIMBYs but is not quite what Vierwielen has said. Rather it was that the carrot of a local junction onto the M25 was used by the planners to appease the locals who were concerned about this motorway spoiling their local countryside. I suppose really it was a combination of both "this road will reduce the traffic currently clogging up the local roads" and "this road will make your journey to the airport, your parents, your child's university etc much quicker and easier".

I wish the cunning bribe ploy hadn’t worked. Because we now have a D4(M) M25... that runs at a staggering 15mph at peak times. It’s almost worth taking a huge diversion to avoid it.

Or to put it more simply, it can’t work in isolation, it was always going to be dependent on the other Ringways sharing the load more evenly.

A gap still not filled, I think...

The problem with there being just one orbital route is it ends up trying to do the job of several. I assume that the M25 wasn't intended to be a route heavily used by people whose journey would never have taken them even close to Greater London at all. Journeys such as Oxford to Cambridge and Portsmouth to Ashford, for example.

Oxford to Cambridge could happen if the A34 became the M34 then carried on past Bicester cutting across a new route to meet the M1 at junction 13c crossing the M1 and taking over the A421 until the A1 then a new route to Cambridge from there.
That would then become the Winchester to Cambridge motorway via Oxford and Milton Kynes/Bletchley.

Portsmouth to Ashford would be done with an eastern extension to the M27 which would become the south cost motorway.

[Glenn A]

Before the M40 was extended from Oxford to Birmingham to meet the M42, the A34 was a complete slog as there were few sections of D2 and you had to drive through Banbury and Stratford. Unbelievably, this was the main link between Oxford and Birmingham until 1991, and also had added pressures from traffic travelling from Southampton docks to the Midlands.

The Peartree Roundabout was notorious. If we were heading towards Oxford city centre or High Wycombe, we would use the A41 through Warwick and Banbury then the A423 through Kidlington to reach the A40 Ring Road thus avoiding Peartree. If we were travelling towards Southampton or Bournemouth, we had little choice but to go via Peartree as there was (and still is) no link from the A40 to the A34 bypass. I think that I travelled only once on the old A34 (now A44 / A3400) via Stratford, Shipston and Woodstock, and that was on a coach trip to Portsmouth.

The A34 was generally of a high standard until it met the A40, and then it turned into an old school S2 that went through everywhere and had become unfit for purpose by the eighties.
Another oddity that seemed to stick out, the A1 through Hatfield, a section of S2 sandwiched between the A1(M) that wasn't finally by passed until 1986. Ideally this should have been replaced in 1978 when the A1(M) by passed South Mimms, but was left to linger on for another 8 years. However, when the A1(M) by passed Hatfield, it was done in style with a tunnel.

[tipsynurse]

I believe that the gaps in the M25 were a deliberate ploy to ward off the NIMBYs. The philosophy was to create a few lovely sections of road such as the highly over-engineered Rickmansworth by-pass, get lots of traffic on them so that the the locals would demand that the gaps be filled in to take away the traffic that was clogging up their towns.

Surely it is 99% logistical. It's an absolutely huge ring road in an incredibly crowded part of the country. It would be impossible to plan and construct the M25 in a way that it had one opening day for the entire road, and bearing how much plans were changing at the time neither would it have been desireable without lots of junction 19s and M26 junctions.

(I like both those junctions by the way!)

[Glenn A]

I believe that the gaps in the M25 were a deliberate ploy to ward off the NIMBYs. The philosophy was to create a few lovely sections of road such as the highly over-engineered Rickmansworth by-pass, get lots of traffic on them so that the the locals would demand that the gaps be filled in to take away the traffic that was clogging up their towns.

Surely it is 99% logistical. It's an absolutely huge ring road in an incredibly crowded part of the country. It would be impossible to plan and construct the M25 in a way that it had one opening day for the entire road, and bearing how much plans were changing at the time neither would it have been desireable without lots of junction 19s and M26 junctions.

(I like both those junctions by the way!)

The M25 was opened in stages from 1983 to 1986. I can remember going on a coach holiday to Spain in May 1983 from Newcastle and the coach was able to by pass London for the first time as the M25 was open from the M11 to the A2. Rather a highlight of the holiday, going through the Dartford Tunnel.

[Vierwielen]

Oxford to Cambridge could happen if the A34 became the M34 then carried on past Bicester cutting across a new route to meet the M1 at junction 13c crossing the M1 and taking over the A421 until the A1 then a new route to Cambridge from there.
That would then become the Winchester to Cambridge motorway via Oxford and Milton Kynes/Bletchley.

... or rather, if you include a bit of the M3 at the southern end and the A14 at the eastern end, a new "ring" road around London stretching from Southampton to Ipswich. I put the word "ring" in inverted commas as the full ring is interrupted by the sea.

[A9NWIL]

Oxford to Cambridge could happen if the A34 became the M34 then carried on past Bicester cutting across a new route to meet the M1 at junction 13c crossing the M1 and taking over the A421 until the A1 then a new route to Cambridge from there.
That would then become the Winchester to Cambridge motorway via Oxford and Milton Kynes/Bletchley.

... or rather, if you include a bit of the M3 at the southern end and the A14 at the eastern end, a new "ring" road around London stretching from Southampton to Ipswich. I put the word "ring" in inverted commas as the full ring is interrupted by the sea.

A 'C' shape road! I like it although going along the M3 is a bit of a jagged bit west, the corner needs to be cut to get to the M27, with the A27 upgraded to the M27 all the way to say Dover.

[Enceladus]

I know that in the UK, the spate of motorway building between the early 1960s and the mid 1980s meant that there were several gaps between continuous sections of motorway where motorway traffic had to use A roads to connect between to motorways. A few that come to mind offhand are the gaps between the M1 and the M6 for Northwest bound traffic, gaps between completed sections of the M25, the gap at tbe Avon crossing in Bristol where the already completed M5 sections at Filton abd Gordano had no Avonmouth bridge to use for a few years. Some other gaps were on the M20, M4 between Maidstone and Tormarton and more such gaps.

Were they a real frustration? Can you regale of tales of dealing with these gaps. I know some didn't last long but others persisted. Was the standard of the connecting trunk roads adequate to cope with traffic...or not!?

[KeithW]

I know that in the UK, the spate of motorway building between the early 1960s and the mid 1980s meant that there were several gaps between continuous sections of motorway where motorway traffic had to use A roads to connect between to motorways. A few that come to mind offhand are the gaps between the M1 and the M6 for Northwest bound traffic, gaps between completed sections of the M25, the gap at tbe Avon crossing in Bristol where the already completed M5 sections at Filton abd Gordano had no Avonmouth bridge to use for a few years. Some other gaps were on the M20, M4 between Maidstone and Tormarton and more such gaps.

Were they a real frustration? Can you regale of tales of dealing with these gaps. I know some didn't last long but others persisted. Was the standard of the connecting trunk roads adequate to cope with traffic...or not!?

The answer to question 1) - Of course they were a real frustration.
The answer to question 2) - How many hours have you got ?
The answer to question 3) - The standard of connecting roads varied from decent but overloaded to appalling

Typical journey from the Kent to Teesside in 1979

Drive to Ashford and join the A20 to Maidstone and the M20
Take the A282 to the single Dartford Tunnel
Follow the A13 through Dagenham past the Ford plant - A suburban S2 that you meant you hit Dagenham just as they were knocking off
Take the A406 round to Hendon and pick up the Great North Way to the M1 - North Circular was still in large part S2
M1 /M18/A1(M) - Now there is a chance of getting a bit of speed on
A1 queue to get past Wetherby roundabout - could queue back to the A64 on a Friday
A168/A19 - A drag through Topcliffe before it was bypassed but at least Thirsk was now bypassed

If I left at 3 PM on a Friday afternoon I MIGHT just make it home before last orders at 11 PM - but on a bad day it could be 2 AM

There were exceptions though. When I came back for Xmas 1980 I didnt leave until midnight and got home at 5.30 on Xmas morning. I think Santa and I were the only people about. It was so quiet I went up the A2 , through the Blackwall tunnel and City of London and in no time flat was on the M1. When I stopped at Watford gap the only people there were bands returning from Xmas Eve gigs. Throw in a crystal clear night with a spectacular Aurora north of Doncaster and it was a rather wonderful experience. My little Fiat 132 was an added bonus as no matter how rusty it got it was a great high speed motorway cruiser with superb handling and disc brakes all round.

[Chris5156]

The M25 was opened in stages from 1983 to 1986. I can remember going on a coach holiday to Spain in May 1983 from Newcastle and the coach was able to by pass London for the first time as the M25 was open from the M11 to the A2. Rather a highlight of the holiday, going through the Dartford Tunnel.

Just a point of fact - the first sections opened in 1976.

[trickstat]

The M25 was opened in stages from 1983 to 1986. I can remember going on a coach holiday to Spain in May 1983 from Newcastle and the coach was able to by pass London for the first time as the M25 was open from the M11 to the A2. Rather a highlight of the holiday, going through the Dartford Tunnel.

Just a point of fact - the first sections opened in 1976.

Apparently, my Mum discovered the Watford bypass section by chance sometime in the late 70s on a journey to somewhere like Reading or Bracknell from Stevenage.

[wrinkly]

Apparently, my Mum discovered the Watford bypass section by chance sometime in the late 70s on a journey to somewhere like Reading or Bracknell from Stevenage.

That must have been in much the same sense that Columbus discovered America (i.e. some other people knew about it already).

[trickstat]

Apparently, my Mum discovered the Watford bypass section by chance sometime in the late 70s on a journey to somewhere like Reading or Bracknell from Stevenage.

That must have been in much the same sense that Columbus discovered America (i.e. some other people knew about it already).

IIRC it was quiet rather than deserted.

[Gareth Thomas]

I vaguely remember the gap in the M20, c.1990. I was only 5/6 at the time, and didn't really understand why we had to come off at Ashford when this lovely new (nearly finished) motorway was straight ahead! The A20 also crosses the M20 a couple of times before Junction 8, so I was looking out of the window and seeing this empty motorway underneath us whilst we were stuck in traffic.

This was not long before it opened so I think it was 95% completed at the time.

I also remember the queues and traffic lights at Winchester when we were on our way to the New Forest.

[Vierwielen]

I also remember the queues and traffic lights at Winchester when we were on our way to the New Forest.

... and the cost of the inquiries into the opposition to the cutting through St Catherine's Hill would probably have paid for a tunnel (as at Hindhead).