Driverless cars, mph and km/h

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KeithW
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by KeithW »

Reading wrote:Adaptive cruise control not great at spotting bikes either

http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/adaptive ... orcyclists
Shock horror a radar based system cannot always detect small radar targets. This is of course why City Safe systems use optical means.
When I have mine turned on I still pay full attention to the road. Having had roof racks come off cars in front and once having to avoid a detached wheel rolling along the A1 my slogan is 'expect the unexpected'. The oddest example was the boat on a trailer being towed along the A171. It had just pulled out the sailing club at Scaling Dam and the tow hitch clearly was not properly hooked up as it detached and trundled down the road before coming to a halt in the ditch. This was of course in the days before safety chains were required.
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KeithW
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by KeithW »

lotrjw wrote:
Reading wrote:Adaptive cruise control not great at spotting bikes either

http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/adaptive ... orcyclists
That proves it, true driverless cars that dont require a driver to step in are a very long way off!
Actually it doesn't as driverless cars use Lidar which is MUCH more capable and more expensive than the cheap low powered radar systems used for adaptive cruise control.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by A9NWIL »

KeithW wrote:
lotrjw wrote:
Reading wrote:Adaptive cruise control not great at spotting bikes either

http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/adaptive ... orcyclists
That proves it, true driverless cars that dont require a driver to step in are a very long way off!
Actually it doesn't as driverless cars use Lidar which is MUCH more capable and more expensive than the cheap low powered radar systems used for adaptive cruise control.
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by michael769 »

lotrjw wrote:
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
Could could say the same thing about 25% of the humans who drive cars!
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by KeithW »

lotrjw wrote:
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
Neither would I but not because of the sensors - thats the easy part.

Producing real time fail resistant software is still something of a black art. Aviation control systems such as those used on Airbus and Boeing typically use 3 computers each running software developed by a different team. At every decision point all 3 are supposed to reach a consensus and if they don't control is handed back to the pilots. In comparison with cars aircraft are in a relatively sterile environment with no jay walking pedestrians crossing the airways. They do however have collision alert systems. These do NOT however control the aircraft they are warning systems for the pilot.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by A9NWIL »

KeithW wrote:
lotrjw wrote:
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
Neither would I but not because of the sensors - thats the easy part.

Producing real time fail resistant software is still something of a black art. Aviation control systems such as those used on Airbus and Boeing typically use 3 computers each running software developed by a different team. At every decision point all 3 are supposed to reach a consensus and if they don't control is handed back to the pilots. In comparison with cars aircraft are in a relatively sterile environment with no jay walking pedestrians crossing the airways. They do however have collision alert systems. These do NOT however control the aircraft they are warning systems for the pilot.
Fair enough I would agree with that and it underlines the fact that true driverless cars are a very long way off! I think AI in general will need to move leaps and bounds before that is even a remote possibility.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by A9NWIL »

michael769 wrote:
lotrjw wrote:
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
Could could say the same thing about 25% of the humans who drive cars!
Well that may be true but with computer controlled cars you are just replicating the issue and without expensive upgrades the issue wont get fixed. With humans they can learn to be better drivers or loose their licence.
I suppose if a computer controlling a driverless car is an issue then all those types of cars could be forced off the road, but the manufacturer would have to bear the entire cost!

Actually I would laugh if that happened as it would set the whole concept back a long way in the eyes of the general public, as something thats unsafe. Many people would become vary wary over driverless cars for life!
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Reading »

KeithW wrote:
lotrjw wrote:
I still wouldn't get in one though and not happy they are allowed on roads as I dont trust them.
Neither would I but not because of the sensors - thats the easy part.

Producing real time fail resistant software is still something of a black art. Aviation control systems such as those used on Airbus and Boeing typically use 3 computers each running software developed by a different team. At every decision point all 3 are supposed to reach a consensus and if they don't control is handed back to the pilots. In comparison with cars aircraft are in a relatively sterile environment with no jay walking pedestrians crossing the airways. They do however have collision alert systems. These do NOT however control the aircraft they are warning systems for the pilot.
And not just a different team but in different languages to reduce the chance of concurrent issues (i reckon that is the only reason Ada has survived so long)
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Reading »

Driverless cars make sense if all vehicles are driverless and you have central control or at least communication between vehicles so they can interact to avoid issues. A system with a mixture of machine (driverless) and human (driven) control where the individual elements (cars/bikes/lorries/traffic lights/emergency services) do not communicate in real time is far far harder, contains many more modes of failure and is a recipe for disaster.

I would be happy with an outside lane on motorways dedicated to driverless vehicles driving nose to tail in convoy etc, as long as drivers took over for entry to and from junctions, I would also be happy with long distance coaches. But local buses where people running late jump out in front waving their arms etc would be hard. And as for being in the same area on the road on my bike as a vehicle that may or may not have spotted me and may or may not decide to autonomously make manoeuvres - no thank you. Most experienced bikers gain a 6th sense for spotting when a driver is going to do something - I am guessing it is a mix of drivers head movements and spotting small corrections/course changes beforehand it is not a conscious thing just as i say like precognition you just know it is about to happen - those clues will not exist with selfdriven vehicles
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by A9NWIL »

Reading wrote:Driverless cars make sense if all vehicles are driverless and you have central control or at least communication between vehicles so they can interact to avoid issues. A system with a mixture of machine (driverless) and human (driven) control where the individual elements (cars/bikes/lorries/traffic lights/emergency services) do not communicate in real time is far far harder, contains many more modes of failure and is a recipe for disaster.

I would be happy with an outside lane on motorways dedicated to driverless vehicles driving nose to tail in convoy etc, as long as drivers took over for entry to and from junctions, I would also be happy with long distance coaches. But local buses where people running late jump out in front waving their arms etc would be hard. And as for being in the same area on the road on my bike as a vehicle that may or may not have spotted me and may or may not decide to autonomously make manoeuvres - no thank you. Most experienced bikers gain a 6th sense for spotting when a driver is going to do something - I am guessing it is a mix of drivers head movements and spotting small corrections/course changes beforehand it is not a conscious thing just as i say like precognition you just know it is about to happen - those clues will not exist with selfdriven vehicles
Again that highlights the idea of driverless cars, without any qualified driver present in the vehicle, is a step too far, unless its in a separate environment.
The idea of a separate space is also something that would be too expensive, unless you convert all motorways and rural dual carriageways to become driverless expressways. That really would require the banning off anything but driverless vehicles from those roads!
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Reading »

Not arguing with you - the only place i can see them working on our twisty, congested UK roads is on motorways and even there they would need their own road space away from other road users
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by A9NWIL »

Reading wrote:Not arguing with you - the only place i can see them working on our twisty, congested UK roads is on motorways and even there they would need their own road space away from other road users
Yes Im agreeing with you, they are next to useless in most settings!
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Lockwood »

A friend recently got a new car, with loads of tech in.

One of the things it can do is read speed limit signs and give warnings based on them. It determines a speed limit as a number in black on white in a red circle. The speed limit behind a lot of vans is 62mph and behind a lot of lorries is 56mph.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Vierwielen »

KeithW wrote:
Reading wrote:Adaptive cruise control not great at spotting bikes either

http://www.bmf.co.uk/news/show/adaptive ... orcyclists
Shock horror a radar based system cannot always detect small radar targets. This is of course why City Safe systems use optical means.
When I have mine turned on I still pay full attention to the road. Having had roof racks come off cars in front and once having to avoid a detached wheel rolling along the A1 my slogan is 'expect the unexpected'. The oddest example was the boat on a trailer being towed along the A171. It had just pulled out the sailing club at Scaling Dam and the tow hitch clearly was not properly hooked up as it detached and trundled down the road before coming to a halt in the ditch. This was of course in the days before safety chains were required.
One of my biggest scares was when I followed a van on a section of D2 road.We both passed of a small rise and my view of the road ahead was obscured by the van. The van then signaled that he was moving into the right-hand lane and proceeded to do so. My wife (who was in the passenger seat) yelled "look out!". As the van completed its move to the right-hand lane I saw a stationary vehicle in my lane and the right-hand lane blocked by an on-coming car with hazard warning lights on. I braked very sharply!.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by M5Lenzar »

Lockwood wrote:A friend recently got a new car, with loads of tech in.

One of the things it can do is read speed limit signs and give warnings based on them. It determines a speed limit as a number in black on white in a red circle. The speed limit behind a lot of vans is 62mph and behind a lot of lorries is 56mph.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Andy33gmail »

Something occurred to me recently. There may become a time when a self driving car is expected to actively disobey the driver

1. If the driver is drunk, presumably they’re not legally entitled to legally over-ride, even in a life and death emergency?
2. Speed limits, obviously.
3. If it finds itself in a moral dilemma, and the “ethically optimal” solution is to drive into a telegraph pole instead of kill two kids that ran out
4. If the instruction is otherwise illegal - e.g. instructing a vehicle to stop when it’s on a motorway

These are not nice problems to have, but they stand between us and “Andy wants a car he can drive to work, except when he wants a lie in en-route, and wants to come back via the pub”
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by KeithW »

Andy33gmail wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 01:16 Something occurred to me recently. There may become a time when a self driving car is expected to actively disobey the driver

1. If the driver is drunk, presumably they’re not legally entitled to legally over-ride, even in a life and death emergency?
2. Speed limits, obviously.
3. If it finds itself in a moral dilemma, and the “ethically optimal” solution is to drive into a telegraph pole instead of kill two kids that ran out
4. If the instruction is otherwise illegal - e.g. instructing a vehicle to stop when it’s on a motorway

These are not nice problems to have, but they stand between us and “Andy wants a car he can drive to work, except when he wants a lie in en-route, and wants to come back via the pub”
1) In the USA the courts in some states can already require people who have been convicted of DUI to have a device that immobilises a car unless a driver provides a sample of breath that is below the legal limit. Indeed some safety campaigners have already suggested it should be fitted to all cars. The problem is of course is its trivially easy to rig up a bellows to give the clean sample,

2) Many cars including my own already read speed limit signs and display them on the dash, they can however become confused. I was recently following an HGV with a sign on the back proclaiming it was limited to 50 mph and my dash immediately informed me the speed limit was 50 - it was actually 30.

3) I would expect the system here to do what most humans do and slam the anchors on, modern collision avoidance systems already do this. This does not prevent a driver steering at the same time. The bigger problem is that the sensors we currently have would have a hard time telling the difference between a large piece of paper and a child. All they see is a moving object intersecting with the path of the vehicle.

4) There are times when you absolutely do have to stop on a motorway, I had to do so once when the tail gate of a pickup opened and dumped a car engine on the road.

Truly self driving cars are not at the point where they can let looses on the ordinary highways without a competent human around to take over. My 2017 C-Max has pretty much the full fit, Lane Keeping system, active city stop, collision avoidance system, adaptive cruise control, reads speed limit signs etc etc

I would no more trust the Lane Keeping System than let a 5 year old drive, the collision avoidance systems are prone to false alerts which I can override, the adaptive cruise control is very good as it lets me set the spacing. The default however is much to short and is well under the 2 second spacing I regard as a minimum. I have already mentioned the speed limit issues. There is the salutary tale of the American driver who trusted his Tesla Autopilot, it killed him when it became confused on the freeway and drove him at full cruising speed into the back of a trailer.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-48308852

The bottom line is that right now the buck stops with the human in charge and I don't see that changing any time soon.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by vlad »

Andy33gmail wrote: Wed Oct 02, 2019 01:16 1. If the driver is drunk, presumably they’re not legally entitled to legally over-ride, even in a life and death emergency?
If the driver is drunk then he's not legally allowed to be in control of the vehicle anyway. There'd need to be a change in the law to allow a drunk "driver" to be the only person in a driverless car.
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by Andy33gmail »

Sorry, yes, that’s what I meant :-)
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Re: Driverless cars, mph and km/h

Post by AutomaticBeloved »

Well it seems Uber's self driving car has massive problems. The report into the Uber vehicle hitting and killing a pedestrian is coming out.

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2019/11/ho ... 018-crash/

"NTSB says the system "did not include consideration for jaywalking pedestrians."

"When the system detects an emergency situation, it initiates action suppression. This is a one-second period during which the [automated driving system] suppresses planned braking while the system verifies the nature of the detected hazard and calculates an alternative path, or vehicle operator takes control of the vehicle."

"Even after this one-second delay, the NTSB says, the system doesn't necessarily apply the brakes with full force. If a collision can be avoided with hard braking, the system brakes hard, up to a fixed maximum level of deceleration. However, if a crash is unavoidable, the system applies less braking force, initiating a "gradual vehicle slowdown," while alerting the driver to take over."
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