Bridge toll differences can be large

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Chris5156
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Chris5156 »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 15:56 It is my understanding that the Welsh Government have bought out the Severn Bridges and made them toll-free on the pretext that the increased traffic would bring increased prosperity to South Wales and more than compensate for the loss of income from the tolls.
No, the Welsh Government have no responsibility for the Severn Bridges. The concession for the operator ended, meaning that control reverted to Highways England, and the DfT instructed them to maintain the bridges from their own (VED-derived) funds rather than start a new concession for tolling. The Welsh Government were very happy to see the tolls go, but they had no say in it.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Vierwielen »

Chris5156 wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 18:21
Vierwielen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 15:56 It is my understanding that the Welsh Government have bought out the Severn Bridges and made them toll-free on the pretext that the increased traffic would bring increased prosperity to South Wales and more than compensate for the loss of income from the tolls.
No, the Welsh Government have no responsibility for the Severn Bridges. The concession for the operator ended, meaning that control reverted to Highways England, and the DfT instructed them to maintain the bridges from their own (VED-derived) funds rather than start a new concession for tolling. The Welsh Government were very happy to see the tolls go, but they had no say in it.
I stand corrected.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

We went over the Ship Canal toll bridge going north a few days ago on our way to Bents Garden Centre. We paid no toll, collection was only for southbound vehicles. Incidentally we came back via the old Runcorn bridge, just so I could see it again, (I'm odd like that !).
AFAIK, with the toll amount set by Act of Parliament, only another Act can increase the toll. This will be an expensive business for MSC, with no guarantee they'll get the toll amount they want. The tolled road is in pretty awful condition, so I, for one, would be prepared to pay more. 50p would be a quadrupling of the existing toll, so that should be it, IMHO.

What puzzles me is how they would increase the allowable weight to 7.5 tonnes. The existing limit is 3.5, so this would be a more than doubling of it. Surely a lot of work would be necessary on the bridge to support the increase in weight ?
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by ravenbluemoon »

fras wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 21:33 What puzzles me is how they would increase the allowable weight to 7.5 tonnes. The existing limit is 3.5, so this would be a more than doubling of it. Surely a lot of work would be necessary on the bridge to support the increase in weight ?
It could be that the bridge is structurally good for 7.5 tonnes, but restricted in order to save on the extra maintenance costs of having big vehicles on the bridge.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by the cheesecake man »

Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41 Is it wrong though?
According to a reliable source it is:
vlad wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 19:44 Warburton is an unusual one as it's not the bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal that's tolled. The location of the toll gate and end of the B5159 are clues.
According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
In practice it doesn't. If you crossed the Ship Canal from the A57 then turned round you wouldn't pay the toll.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Big Nick »

the cheesecake man wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 13:15
Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41 Is it wrong though?
According to a reliable source it is:
vlad wrote: Sun Apr 01, 2018 19:44 Warburton is an unusual one as it's not the bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal that's tolled. The location of the toll gate and end of the B5159 are clues.
According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
In practice it doesn't. If you crossed the Ship Canal from the A57 then turned round you wouldn't pay the toll.
I see that we are in hair-splitting territory.
How about this? : The monies collected by the toll are intended to be used by the toll operators to maintain the crossings over the River Mersey and the Manchester Ship Canal. This includes the original Rixton and Warburton bridge, and the later High-Level Bridge, and the roads leading to them.
The few vehicles using that road and not passing the toll will be those going to the caravan park by the A57 or the farm and fields either side. This is most likely a very low number and not worth them chasing. They may even have prior agreements with the toll operators.
Manchester Ship Canal [53 & 54 Vict.] {Various Powers) Act, 1890. A.D. 1890.
Number 35. An opening bridge in the township of Rixton-cum-Glazebrook to carry the Rixton and Warburton Road over the canal;
Number 36.An opening bridge in the township of Latchford to carry the road leading from Knutsford to Warrington over the canal;
Number 37.An opening bridge in the township of Latchford to carry the road leading from Hunt's Land to Latchford Station over the canal;
and Number 39.An opening bridge in the township of Appleton to carry the road leading from Warrington to Stretton and Northwich over the canal: And whereas it is expedient that the Company be authorised to abandon the construction of the said works numbered respectively 35 36 37 and 39 and to make and maintain the substituted and other works by this Act authorised : And whereas it is expedient that the Company be authorised to make and maintain the new cut in the Bridgewater Canal and the new branch canal hereinafter described : 26 & 27 Vict.
And whereas the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Company (in c. lxiii. ftug Act called " the Bridge Company ") incorporated by the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Act 1863 under the powers of that 30 & 31 Vict. Act and the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Amendment Act c xxxviii. igQ7 raised a capital in shares of seven thousand pounds and borrowed and now owe on mortgage the sum of one thousand five hundred pounds and constructed a road with an iron bridge across the River Mersey and levy tolls for the use thereof which road was by the Act of 1885 authorised to be carried over the canal by the said opening bridge Number 35 and it is expedient that the Company be authorised to divert the said road and to carry the same over the canal by a fixed bridge in lieu of the said bridge Number 35: And whereas the Bridge Company for some time past have not paid any interest on their mortgage debt: And whereas it is expedient that the agreement between the Company and the Bridge Company for the transfer of the said road and bridge undertaking to the Company set forth in the schedule to this Act be confirmed:
From this extract we can see the the original R&W Bridge Co were not making money on the toll. They couldn't even meet the mortgage interest payments. The original act places the maintenance of the road on them: from the junction in Warburton to the Warrington to Manchester Turnpike (todays A57).
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 3.pdf.html

Then the Manchester Ship Company did some sort of deal in which they presumably absorbed the costs of the mortgage, replaced the R&W Co and built a new bridge. But not an opening bridge as proposed.

Something I do find curious is the exact toll fee of 12p. In 1863 there was a huge variation according as to what you were driving, be it a Sixpence for a small carriage or Ten pence per score of cows.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 3.pdf.html

This FOI reply is not fully accurate https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... bridge_act

When did it get fixed at 12p (or 12.5p)?
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Chris Bertram »

12.5p is the decimal conversion of the old half-crown (2s 6d), which was in common circulation up to 1971, and at that time would have been seen as generous pocket-money to a small child. When the decimal halfpenny was withdrawn and demonetised, the odd 0.5p would have been knocked off the price, as it was with the dog licence, formerly 7s 6d becoming 37.5p, then 37p, then abolished entirely as it cost more to administer than it brought in in revenue.
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the cheesecake man
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by the cheesecake man »

Big Nick wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 15:17 How about this? : The monies collected by the toll are intended to be used by the toll operators to maintain the crossings over the River Mersey and the Manchester Ship Canal. This includes the original Rixton and Warburton bridge, and the later High-Level Bridge, and the roads leading to them.
The few vehicles using that road and not passing the toll will be those going to the caravan park by the A57 or the farm and fields either side. This is most likely a very low number and not worth them chasing. They may even have prior agreements with the toll operators.
That sounds far too simple and sensible for a British government to come up with.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by FleetlinePhil »

Rambo wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 14:01
Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41
the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:14

Complete with wrong picture. :no:

Would/should collecting tolls on one bridge (the one that's actually tolled) for works to a different crossing (over the Ship Canal) be allowed?
Is it wrong though? According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
I also note that you can get a Toll Pass (£15 per year) for regular crossings. I would like to see all such Passes and Tolls linked to one account but then we get into the realms of road charging :stir:

The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
Most people think the toll is for the high level bridge across the Manchester ship canal - and they are right. The common myth is that the toll only covers the old stone bridge which crosses the dried up course of the river Mersey. I believe the website is correct that the toll covers the high level bridge too as this is effectively the course of the river Mersey today as the section of the MSC is also the Mersey in the section between Irlam and Rixton.

The increase in toll seems like an unreasonable hike. However the toll has been set to a very low 12p per crossing for at least the last 20 years for perspective.
The BBC is reporting that a public inquiry into the proposed toll increase has now been announced for November.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by FleetlinePhil »

More Warburton Bridge news on the BBC:
Warburton Toll Bridge free to use during three months' roadworks.

A toll bridge linking Cheshire and Greater Manchester will be free to cross during three months of roadworks, its owner has said.
Warburton Toll Bridge will go down to single-lane traffic but remain "fully operational and safe", said Peel.
The company said the toll booth and its staff were "not needed" during the maintenance work, which follows "a routine engineering inspection".
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by The Deuce »

Approval granted to increase the Warburton Toll from 12p to £1


BBC
Plans to increase a toll bridge's charge from 12p to £1 for a single crossing have been given the go-ahead.

The Manchester Ship Canal Company (MSCC) had asked to increase charges for the Warburton bridge, which links Cheshire and Greater Manchester.

Councils, MPs and residents all raised concerns at a public inquiry in 2022.

The inquiry recommended that a Transport and Works Act Order be made allowing for the toll increase, which the transport secretary has now passed.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

Living near Crewe, we use the Warburton bridge to go to Bents, a large garden centre, just south of the East Lancs Road near Leigh. Its an outing the wife likes a lot. The bridge means we can avoid the M6 and the M60.

Clearly the 12p toll is ridiculously low, but is £1 too much ? Probably not, and I don't expect that I'll chance the dreadful M6 Thelwall viaduct all that often as it is so often jammed-up; best to pay-up and get there, (and back) !
The toll bridge itself looks pretty flimsy, I have to say (there is a 3 tonne weight limit), and the road surface is in a dreadful condition. Hopefully, MSC will now get on with improvements. The real pity is the disused railway bridge nearly two miles away upstream is just left abandoned, when it could be used as another crossing with some links to the A57 and the A6144 without spending a huge sum of money.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by WHBM »

12p was also the toll on the Severn Bridge (the 1966 one) through the 1970s, as due to a legal silliness a toll amount of 2 shillings and 6 pence had been incorporated in the enabling legislation. It was actually made 20p, and then there was a court case when it was held invalid, and it was knocked back to 12p. 1970s were at the time when governments had slim majorities, including being supported by Welsh MPs, none of whom would support any legislation revision for a toll increase.

It's always seemed strange that the original Manchester Ship Canal construction included both low level swing bridges and high level fixed ones, often within sight of one another, especially as they were built in the 1890s, before motor vehicles.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Bryn666 »

The swing bridges are higher in number and often because there was no space for a high level crossing. Given the only two high level structures are Warburton and Latchford (barring the railways), and neither were on major roads, it presumably was politics involving stagecoaches or local land owners.

The toll at Warburton is actually because of the original Mersey bridge, which is still there even though the river isn't.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Oct 10, 2023 10:14 The swing bridges are higher in number and often because there was no space for a high level crossing. Given the only two high level structures are Warburton and Latchford (barring the railways), and neither were on major roads, it presumably was politics involving stagecoaches or local land owners.

The toll at Warburton is actually because of the original Mersey bridge, which is still there even though the river isn't.
And here is the bridge and old toll house !
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4033601 ... &entry=ttu
To be honest, I had never looked before. The curve of what was the Mersey is shown in aerial photos very clearly.
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