Bridge toll differences can be large

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fras
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Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

Had a little outing today to explore the route of the proposed HS2 north of Crewe, (this will be in Phase 2b). Anyway we were near Warburton so did a little detour to look at this old church, partly constructed in timber. It was very cold, and wife suggested we drive on to Bents, a large garden centre just off the East Lancs Road at Glazebury. To do this one must cross the toll bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal and pay 12p !! To get home, I decided to work across to the new Mersey bridge as I still had a crossing credit. This toll is £2, so for this one can make 16 crossings of the Warburton bridge and have change left over. What I do wonder is how any money is made from the tolls to maintain the bridge, (admittedly with a 3 tonne limit), as there are two chaps there all day and most of the night collecting the 12p tolls. I have only gone over free once, when the barriers were up and no staff on duty.
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Berk
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

Bridges like this were set up by local acts (of parliament), centuries ago. You mention the toll as being 12p, which like as not was rounded down from 12½p, 2s 6d previously.

Without any statutory provision for updating tolls, I would imagine bridges like these are running at a huge loss, barely covering their interest payments. If they ever needed large scale maintenance, or refurb works, I can imagine who the first call would be made to... :roll:

Bottom line, the government should buy them out!! I’m not a fan of nationalisation, but in cases like these, I can’t see what benefit or income the “tolls” generate - apart from small change.
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hoagy_ytfc
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by hoagy_ytfc »

This one is 5p and seems to be worth it to someone:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 33601.html

Though when you page down it includes a home. And the bridge income is tax-free.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by avtur »

In the days of my misspent youth I remember going to Abersoch most weekends in the summer, late 70's through to the early 80's ... the drive to get there from Stockport was the best part of 3 hours, old roads and old cars !!!

I remember very well the toll at Porthmadog where the A497 runs parallel to the sea wall and the Ffestiniog railway, it was 5p .... but there was always someone there to collect it up until at least 11pm ... midnight on bank holiday weekends ... the toll no longer exist so I presume the interest must have been bought out by the local authority, although the modern day routing of the A487 takes all the 'through' traffic away from what was the toll road.
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KeithW
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by KeithW »

The Selby Town bridge aka tool bridge was built under an act of parliament passed in 1791 by the Selby Bridge Company and the tools remained in place until 1991 when the council bought the rights from the Selby Bridge company. I dont recall the exact toll but it was only a few pence but the act of collection it used to snarl up the traffic for miles around. It was not unusual to take 30 minutes to cross it.

The Tees Transporter bridge was built in 1911 being authorised by a an act of Parliament passed in 1907. At the time the only alternative to the ferry was to go via Stockton which was a 10 mile diversion. It remains a toll bridge but is more of a visitor attraction these days than a working bridge.
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KeithW
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by KeithW »

Berk wrote:Bridges like this were set up by local acts (of parliament), centuries ago. You mention the toll as being 12p, which like as not was rounded down from 12½p, 2s 6d previously.

Without any statutory provision for updating tolls, I would imagine bridges like these are running at a huge loss, barely covering their interest payments. If they ever needed large scale maintenance, or refurb works, I can imagine who the first call would be made to... :roll:

Bottom line, the government should buy them out!! I’m not a fan of nationalisation, but in cases like these, I can’t see what benefit or income the “tolls” generate - apart from small change.
In most cases there are no interest payments. The capital for the bridge was provided by the investors in the Bridge Company who were repaid in the form of dividends. Often these included well known civil engineers and bridge builders. In the case of Selby they included William Jessop, John Carr, John Smeaton, Thomas Atkinson and Robert Whitworth.

Because they are authorised by an act of parliament it is in fact rather difficult to simply nationalise them requiring in effect another act of parliament. Usually the only practical solution is to purchase the rights from the Bridge Company. Where the bridge is running at a loss this is normally easy enough but in the case of the Selby Bridge enough capital had been accrued that it was reported the company shares were trading at a round £100 each. When the Selby bridge needed replacing in 1966 it was the "Company of Proprietors of Selby Bridge" who paid the £130,000 for the work.

If you want an example of a bridge company still trading see
http://whitchurchbridge.com/
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

avtur wrote: I remember very well the toll at Porthmadog where the A497 runs parallel to the sea wall and the Ffestiniog railway, it was 5p .... but there was always someone there to collect it up until at least 11pm ... midnight on bank holiday weekends ... the toll no longer exist so I presume the interest must have been bought out by the local authority, although the modern day routing of the A487 takes all the 'through' traffic away from what was the toll road.
A few miles away at Penrhyndeudraeth is the much less well known Pont Briwet across the River Dwyryd. The original road bridge was a toll bridge used by some drivers as a shortcut between Harlech and Porthmadog, thus avoiding an eight mile detour via Maentwrog. A new rail and road bridge was built a few years ago to replace the old bridge, and the new road bridge is not tolled.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by avtur »

Robert Kilcoyne wrote:
avtur wrote: I remember very well the toll at Porthmadog where the A497 runs parallel to the sea wall and the Ffestiniog railway, it was 5p .... but there was always someone there to collect it up until at least 11pm ... midnight on bank holiday weekends ... the toll no longer exist so I presume the interest must have been bought out by the local authority, although the modern day routing of the A487 takes all the 'through' traffic away from what was the toll road.
A few miles away at Penrhyndeudraeth is the much less well known Pont Briwet across the River Dwyryd. The original road bridge was a toll bridge used by some drivers as a shortcut between Harlech and Porthmadog, thus avoiding an eight mile detour via Maentwrog. A new rail and road bridge was built a few years ago to replace the old bridge, and the new road bridge is not tolled.
Yes used that that many times over the years as a toll bridge many times more since the much delayed new bridge was completed, it is very good.
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vlad
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by vlad »

Warburton is an unusual one as it's not the bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal that's tolled. The location of the toll gate and end of the B5159 are clues.

This is the actual toll bridge (and if you can't see it then I'm not surprised). Back in the day it crossed the River Mersey but since the construction of the MSC it now crosses little more than a culverted ditch.

They wouldn't really make any profit - but I can't see the bridge as being expensive to maintain.
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fras
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

If you want an example of a bridge company still trading see
http://whitchurchbridge.com
Indeed, and I've been across that bridge a few times over the years, the first around 1958 when out cycling with my father. The hill up from the Thames goes on and on and on !
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nowster
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by nowster »

In the latter years the Porthmadoc cob toll went to a charity, IIRC. And the toll was bought out as part of the refurbishment of the cob in the early 2000s.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Bryn666 »

vlad wrote:Warburton is an unusual one as it's not the bridge over the Manchester Ship Canal that's tolled. The location of the toll gate and end of the B5159 are clues.

This is the actual toll bridge (and if you can't see it then I'm not surprised). Back in the day it crossed the River Mersey but since the construction of the MSC it now crosses little more than a culverted ditch.

They wouldn't really make any profit - but I can't see the bridge as being expensive to maintain.
Correct, which is why the Latchford High Level Bridge is free to cross. The MSCC did not construct any toll crossings. Only Warburton and Latchford formed fixed high level crossings too, everything else was a swing bridge. In some respects the MSC is a massive barrier to road transport in the region.
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Robert Kilcoyne
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Bryn666 wrote:In some respects the MSC is a massive barrier to road transport in the region.
And historically, the delays to traffic crossing the Manchester Ship Canal on the Barton Swing Bridge when that road was the A575 were a key factor in the building of the then M62 (later M63, now M60) between Stretford and Worsley in the late 1950's.

Similarly, traffic delays in Warrington for north-south traffic on the A49 and A50 crossing the MSC would have been a significant reason to build the Thelwall Viaduct at a relatively early stage in the history of the building of the M6.
Reading
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Reading »

one near me over River Thames - in my experience of using it toll has gone from 20p to 60p for cars - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitchurch_Bridge original toll is listed as 2d per wheel of the carriage - http://whitchurchbridge.com/history.html

https://goo.gl/maps/vrQxXehUFvt 2009 20p

https://goo.gl/maps/JgpD3kEhMnx 2017 60p

motorcycles it seems to depend how long you take rummaging in your clothes and how long the queue is as to whether you end up paying
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

I’d imagine it’s quicker to use one of their card systems?? At least Whitchurch have got the vision to do that. A lot of others operators... don’t (and expect you to pay in bits of tin).
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

On my way home, the A34 was rammed past Oxford. So I thought I’d try a short cut through the city centre, for a break at Peartree, only that was no better (maybe I was put off by some queues near Westgate).

So I headed out of town, only to find I was on Botley Road, which leads back to :@.

This left the A420 as the only possible escape, but heading in the wrong direction. Took the next right, the B4044 to Farmoor, and the tell-take signs were already bad....


The Swinford Toll Bridge. Goodness sake, :censored: idiots. The road would be free-flowing if it wasn’t for the toll bar. Just imagine if there was a toll barrier at the end of your driveway, that you had to pay 5p to cross every time.

Just because it’s permitted by legislation, doesn’t make it appropriate.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Berk wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 18:12 On my way home, the A34 was rammed past Oxford. So I thought I’d try a short cut through the city centre, for a break at Peartree, only that was no better (maybe I was put off by some queues near Westgate).

So I headed out of town, only to find I was on Botley Road, which leads back to :@.

This left the A420 as the only possible escape, but heading in the wrong direction. Took the next right, the B4044 to Farmoor, and the tell-take signs were already bad....


The Swinford Toll Bridge. Goodness sake, :censored: idiots. The road would be free-flowing if it wasn’t for the toll bar. Just imagine if there was a toll barrier at the end of your driveway, that you had to pay 5p to cross every time.

Just because it’s permitted by legislation, doesn’t make it appropriate.
The B4044 and the Swinford Toll Bridge were part of the A40 before the Oxford northern bypass was opened in the 1930's.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by fras »

5p is hardly going to break the motorist's bank, but clearly made a lot of money for the previous owner and probably a lot for the new owner, one must assume. Problem with very small tolls like this is there is no incentive at all to modernise the operation. In addition, the delays are probably regarded as an advantage to those who live in Eynsham as it stops those who want to avoid traffic on the A40.

The toll at Warburton near me has been 12p since I moved to Crewe and I've lived here 23 years ! Came through it about 2 weeks ago, and one side was free, presumably because they only had one toll collector in the booth.

PS: further investigation reveals it is a tax haven !!

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newsto ... llion.html
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

fras wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 20:33 5p is hardly going to break the motorist's bank, but clearly made a lot of money for the previous owner and probably a lot for the new owner, one must assume. Problem with very small tolls like this is there is no incentive at all to modernise the operation. In addition, the delays are probably regarded as an advantage to those who live in Eynsham as it stops those who want to avoid traffic on the A40.
My issue isn’t the charge -as you say, not unreasonable- but the sheer inconvenience caused by having to pay. It creates congestion where there wasn’t any, and in an already congested area that is far from ideal.

And the idea it provides a valuable income, whilst partly true, it can’t be enough to provide a sustainable funding source. What if the bridge fell down, or needed urgent repairs (like Whitchurch)?? I doubt the trustees could afford a 6 or 7 figure sum, based on all those fivepenny pieces they receive every day.

In 1970, 1s was held to be worth 5 new pence. Today 5p would be around 1½d (perhaps even just 1d). So to collect a commensurate toll, it would need to be 40p or similar.

I cannot understand the persistence of trustees to keep claiming a small pittance in toll income simply because an ancient law allows it. It’s hardly any different from when newspapers and cheques had to have stamp duty paid on them.

An anachronistic irrelevance.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

The linked article (dated 2009) proves my point.
It has a gross annual income of around £190,000.
The business was sold in that year for slightly below £1.1m. Six years of toll income.

You would need as much capital as that to rebuild. I doubt even a year’s income would cover maintenance costs.

On the other hand, a private sector operator might have much lower fixed costs than a public sector one.
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