Bridge toll differences can be large

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AndyB
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by AndyB »

A private operator might have lower fixed costs due to terrible wages, but a large company will tend to charge more than a council for crossing the same bridge.

Private tolls may be anachronistic, but they will be rather good at restricting demand.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by KeithW »

AndyB wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 11:32 A private operator might have lower fixed costs due to terrible wages, but a large company will tend to charge more than a council for crossing the same bridge.

Private tolls may be anachronistic, but they will be rather good at restricting demand.
Private toll bridges were built under the terms of a specific Act of Parliament and as such the toll is fixed in the act so they are often at the same level now as when the road was built. It takes a new act to increase or abolish the toll. The bad thing for the public is that a local authority cannot use normal compulsory purchase orders and has to come to terms with the bridge company. In the case of the Selby toll bridge the toll was set at 9p. I believe the toll was increased in the 1860's under the terms of the Locomotive act. Cars were basically charged as a traction engine. In 1991 Selby District Council and North Yorkshire County Council paid £500,000 to the toll company to buy them out.

The toll did little to restrict demand as it was the only way across the Ouse between the M62 bridge and the Cawood swing bridge. That demand only subsided with the opening of the southern bypass

The Warburton bridge toll for mechanically propelled vehicles was set at 2 shillings and sixpence in the 1863 Act of Parliament - inflation was not a major issue in that era.
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 3.pdf.html

This act was amazingly restrictive preventing any competitor from establishing a crossing for a mile on either side of the Warburton Bridge
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by AndyB »

How complicated would it be to pass a single Bill amending all those private acts imposing a minimum and maximum toll along these lines:

Cars and bikes: 50p to £1
Vehicles over 3.5t (where allowed): £1 to £3
Pedestrians: free or 20p to 50p

Individual bridges where a higher toll is appropriate to be allowed for and specified in the schedule.

Tolls to be revised in future by Order

And make sure the wording specifies that while they must not charge a toll less than these amounts, there is no requirement to collect the toll at all.
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KeithW
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by KeithW »

AndyB wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 14:52 How complicated would it be to pass a single Bill amending all those private acts imposing a minimum and maximum toll along these lines:

Cars and bikes: 50p to £1
Vehicles over 3.5t (where allowed): £1 to £3
Pedestrians: free or 20p to 50p

Individual bridges where a higher toll is appropriate to be allowed for and specified in the schedule.

Tolls to be revised in future by Order

And make sure the wording specifies that while they must not charge a toll less than these amounts, there is no requirement to collect the toll at all.
I suspect that each existing act would need to be either amended or repealed and finding parliamentary time for that would be a challenge. A better approach might be a law that enables Highways England or the Local Highways authority to purchase the rights based on an impartial assessment of the value along the same lines as existing powers of compulsory purchase. Then the tolls could be abolished as was done at Selby.
Last edited by KeithW on Sat Aug 11, 2018 16:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Berk
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

AndyB wrote: Sat Aug 11, 2018 14:52 How complicated would it be to pass a single Bill amending all those private acts imposing a minimum and maximum toll along these lines:

Cars and bikes: 50p to £1
Vehicles over 3.5t (where allowed): £1 to £3
Pedestrians: free or 20p to 50p

Individual bridges where a higher toll is appropriate to be allowed for and specified in the schedule.

Tolls to be revised in future by Order

And make sure the wording specifies that while they must not charge a toll less than these amounts, there is no requirement to collect the toll at all.
Agreed. I would also add that for payment of very small tolls, payment by premium text could also be an option (you text PAY to a number, and it charges your bill). Far quicker than fumbling for change. Which I luckily had.

I was so annoyed with having to queue a fourth time, I didn’t even wait for my change, and drove off.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by AndyB »

Most private tolls would just shut down if you did that. You have to do what’s realistic, and dictating methods of payment might not only be unrealistic for the bridges but also in danger of not being able to be superseded as technology moves on.

Keith, the idea is an omnibus bill which would simply amend the relevant section of each existing Act with “Tolls may be charged and will be set in accordance with the Private Bridges (Tolls) Act 2018”
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Berk »

I wouldn’t mandate it, just suggested as an option. There are lots of micro-payment providers out there, and they engage with very small businesses and sole traders. I don’t think it would be particularly expensive if the operators chose that route.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by AndyB »

Suggesting it wouldn’t belong in legislation - but it would fit perfectly in an explanatory leaflet to Bridge owners.

Of course, while Parliament can amend a Private Act because of its right to amend legislation, it’s unlikely to do so unless it’s happy that the relevant bodies have at least been consulted and reason shown why the Bill should proceed against any objections
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by FleetlinePhil »

fras wrote: Fri Aug 10, 2018 20:33
The toll at Warburton near me has been 12p since I moved to Crewe and I've lived here 23 years ! Came through it about 2 weeks ago, and one side was free, presumably because they only had one toll collector in the booth.
Possibly not for much longer? :shock:
Manchester Ship Canal Company, which owns Warburton Toll Bridge, wants to increase the fee from 12p to up to £1.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by the cheesecake man »

FleetlinePhil wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:00
Possibly not for much longer? :shock:
Manchester Ship Canal Company, which owns Warburton Toll Bridge, wants to increase the fee from 12p to up to £1.
Complete with wrong picture. :no:

Would/should collecting tolls on one bridge (the one that's actually tolled) for works to a different crossing (over the Ship Canal) be allowed?
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by multiraider2 »

We always seemed to do a day trip to Dover from our holidays to Broadstairs when I was young. Not sure why, perhaps my dad used to like to look at the ships. A curse was the Sandwich Toll Bridge which made massive queues on the A256 for its one shilling toll and not helped that it was and is of s1 configuration. I can see online that its 5p tolls were scrapped after the A256 bypass opened and since then it's been hit by a ship and was scheduled for permanent closure by 2020, but that closure has been postponed. It's the only way over the Stour in the town so I can't help think its closure would make pedestrian journeys to the other side of town impractical. The bypass is a considerable way around on foot and not actually suitable for pedestrians with no dedicated footway.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Big Nick »

the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:14
FleetlinePhil wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:00
Possibly not for much longer? :shock:
Manchester Ship Canal Company, which owns Warburton Toll Bridge, wants to increase the fee from 12p to up to £1.
Complete with wrong picture. :no:

Would/should collecting tolls on one bridge (the one that's actually tolled) for works to a different crossing (over the Ship Canal) be allowed?
Is it wrong though? According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
I also note that you can get a Toll Pass (£15 per year) for regular crossings. I would like to see all such Passes and Tolls linked to one account but then we get into the realms of road charging :stir:

The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Bryn666 »

Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41
the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:14
FleetlinePhil wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:00
Possibly not for much longer? :shock:
Complete with wrong picture. :no:

Would/should collecting tolls on one bridge (the one that's actually tolled) for works to a different crossing (over the Ship Canal) be allowed?
Is it wrong though? According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
I also note that you can get a Toll Pass (£15 per year) for regular crossings. I would like to see all such Passes and Tolls linked to one account but then we get into the realms of road charging :stir:

The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
That's classic MP with driver entitlement syndrome! A new D2 crossing with wide cycleways would completely revolutionise transport in this area, but it won't be built because it can't create loads of new houses can it?
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Rambo »

Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41
the cheesecake man wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:14
FleetlinePhil wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:00
Possibly not for much longer? :shock:
Complete with wrong picture. :no:

Would/should collecting tolls on one bridge (the one that's actually tolled) for works to a different crossing (over the Ship Canal) be allowed?
Is it wrong though? According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
I also note that you can get a Toll Pass (£15 per year) for regular crossings. I would like to see all such Passes and Tolls linked to one account but then we get into the realms of road charging :stir:

The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
Most people think the toll is for the high level bridge across the Manchester ship canal - and they are right. The common myth is that the toll only covers the old stone bridge which crosses the dried up course of the river Mersey. I believe the website is correct that the toll covers the high level bridge too as this is effectively the course of the river Mersey today as the section of the MSC is also the Mersey in the section between Irlam and Rixton.

The increase in toll seems like an unreasonable hike. However the toll has been set to a very low 12p per crossing for at least the last 20 years for perspective.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by c2R »

Interestingly, the legislation also prohibits toll evasion through nearby fords or ferries:

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... 7.pdf.html
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

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Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41Is it wrong though? According to their website https://www.warburtontollbridge.co.uk/history/ the toll covers the entire road from Warburton to the A57. We would need to read the exact legislation to be certain.
Number 35.—An opening bridge in the township of Rixton- cum-Glazebrook to carry the Rixton and Warburton Road over the canal;


And whereas the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Company (in Act called "the Bridge Company") incorporated by the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Act 1863 under the powers of that Act and the Rixton and Warburton Bridge Amendment Act 1867 raised a capital in shares of seven thousand pounds and
borrowed and now owe on mortgage the sum of one thousand five hundred pounds and constructed a road with an iron bridge across the River Mersey and levy tolls for the use thereof which road was by the Act of 1885 authorised to be carried over the canal by the said opening bridge Number 35 and it is expedient that the Company be authorised to divert the said road and to carry the same over the canal by a fixed bridge in lieu of the said bridge Number 35:
http://eawa.co.uk/BW%20Canal/manchester ... t-1890.pdf
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Bendo »

We cross it quite often to goto Dunham Massey, don't mind paying 12p each way (although has been only1 way of late due to covid) but at £1 I'd go the long way round as its generally onlyaa few mins slower anyway.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Vierwielen »

Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41 The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
It is my understanding that the Welsh Government have bought out the Severn Bridges and made them toll-free on the pretext that the increased traffic would bring increased prosperity to South Wales and more than compensate for the loss of income from the tolls.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by Big Nick »

Vierwielen wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 15:56
Big Nick wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 13:41 The bridge exists mainly for motor vehicles, yet the councillor thinks it's wrong that motorists pay for it? He wants road improvements without his voters paying for them.
"Any proposals to invest in the future of the bridge are to be welcomed. However, it is completely unacceptable that motorists should have to bear the brunt of these costs."
It is my understanding that the Welsh Government have bought out the Severn Bridges and made them toll-free on the pretext that the increased traffic would bring increased prosperity to South Wales and more than compensate for the loss of income from the tolls.
That comparison doesn't really work here. The Severn Bridges carry a pair of motorways and the heavy goods vehicles to and from the Welsh cities. The only alternative is a 60 mile detour that takes at least 90 minutes.
In Warrington the bridge is only good for 3tonne vehicles and the detour is less than 30 minutes. Not the most compelling economic argument.
Bendo wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 15:41 We cross it quite often to goto Dunham Massey, don't mind paying 12p each way (although has been only1 way of late due to covid) but at £1 I'd go the long way round as its generally onlyaa few mins slower anyway.
I wonder the company is asking for £1 with the thought that it's high enough to put off occasional users which then saves on wear and tear - like the M6Toll. Or they may be bidding high in expectation of getting knocked down to 50p.
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Re: Bridge toll differences can be large

Post by c2R »

The last time I went over it, probably about four years ago, it looked like it needed more than a lick of paint in terms of maintenance - so while it's probably a little annoying for people who use it for the price to be increased to £1 from 12p, something needs to pay for the upkeep or replacement - if the toll had been increased each year with inflation, it would be 50p anyway by now.

However, if Warrington council are so up in arms about the rise, why don't they build their own bridge - it's not like they're not a highways authority!
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