M25 south-west quadrant

[Glom]

Does it deal with J11?

[jackal]

Here's what I think it would take to make a sensible A3 to M4 connection. It largely uses existing dual carriageway, and the A3095 mostly has space for the extra carriageway. The offline section past Bracknell may be tricky but that's something pretty much any proposal in this area will have to grapple with.

[Bryn666]

Why this country hates the idea of driving to a railway station so much is beyond me.

Then again, this country hates the idea of anyone travelling anywhere whatever they use. Footways are assault courses, cycleways dicey, roads and rails inadequate. It's as if there's a conspiracy to punish anyone daring to be productive and get to work.

[Owain]

Here's what I think it would take to make a sensible A3 to M4 connection. It largely uses existing dual carriageway, and the A3095 mostly has space for the extra carriageway. The offline section past Bracknell may be tricky but that's something pretty much any proposal in this area will have to grapple with.

M4 to A3.PNG

Would make a nice new A32. In fact the bit to the north of A31 could be numbered as an A32 expressway, without having to renumber the current (largely pointless) A32.

[Vierwielen]

Here's what I think it would take to make a sensible A3 to M4 connection. It largely uses existing dual carriageway, and the A3095 mostly has space for the extra carriageway. The offline section past Bracknell may be tricky but that's something pretty much any proposal in this area will have to grapple with.

M4 to A3.PNG

The roundabout at the A30 gets clogged up at rush-hour,, so unless a flyover or underpass were built, this router has as many complications as the other routes.

[Vierwielen]

... snip

Of course, slightly off topic. The hindhead tunnel was closed. There is now no avoiding route with the old road being ripped up and grassed. The HA talked about getting ideas from Switzerland, including lane control, and I've been over there when a contra flow was running with only the lights, red crosses and lots of speed signs, and this was going to keep the Hindhead tunnel open. But I guess we are just a bit too risk averse to use that here in the UK. I know the equipment in the A27 Southwick tunnel has been allowed to go to rot, with complete closure of both bores the default. Oh well!!!

They have done this in the past. The Wikipedia article has a photo of such an operation in action.

[jackal]

Here's what I think it would take to make a sensible A3 to M4 connection. It largely uses existing dual carriageway, and the A3095 mostly has space for the extra carriageway. The offline section past Bracknell may be tricky but that's something pretty much any proposal in this area will have to grapple with.

M4 to A3.PNG

The roundabout at the A30 gets clogged up at rush-hour,, so unless a flyover or underpass were built, this router has as many complications as the other routes.

Plenty of space for grade separation there.

[Johnathan404]

Of course, slightly off topic. The hindhead tunnel was closed. There is now no avoiding route with the old road being ripped up and grassed. The HA talked about getting ideas from Switzerland, including lane control, and I've been over there when a contra flow was running with only the lights, red crosses and lots of speed signs, and this was going to keep the Hindhead tunnel open. But I guess we are just a bit too risk averse to use that here in the UK. I know the equipment in the A27 Southwick tunnel has been allowed to go to rot, with complete closure of both bores the default. Oh well!!!

If it was Sunday afternoon the closure was for an accident outside the tunnel control zone which required the attendance of an air ambulance.

They definitely used to use contra-flows at Hindhead. In 2014 I was stopped at the wig-wags at 10pm for about five minutes while they set up a contra-flow. No cones required in the tunnel but I don't see how they'd manage without them at the crossovers. It might be true that a full closure is preferred now but that's no different to roadworks on any motorway.

The Wallasey Tunnel (admittedly not HE's) has (had?) a contra-flow every Tuesday afternoon which I became very familiar with.

The only time I've seen any of the equipment for the Southwick Hill Tunnel in use was when there was an accident on the approach road, a few hundred yards before the tunnel itself.

[Barkstar]

Why this country hates the idea of driving to a railway station so much is beyond me.

Because it is seen as a cash cow and not an amenity. My local borough is very mixed in terms of incomes - but because a lot of business travellers pick up the London bound trains instead of going into the city centre when a new multi-storey was built (NCP ) they though charging £13 on a Saturday is okay.

And having said that all to often when the parking is free at stations in urban areas they fill up with local workers and not commuters….

[jackal]

Highways England network planning director Jeremy Bloom in December:

“M25 SW quadrant has been quite a difficult one. The M25 on the west side of London is probably the most congested and the most difficult part of the strategic road network. Anyone that has tried to drive it knows how difficult it is for most of the day, and we have looked at it in depth but the conclusion from the study is that while we can make the most of and maximise the use of the existing infrastructure, widening within the existing corridor is probably not the right solution. It’s quite an urban area and it would just suck in more traffic.

“So the decision was taken that we would look outside of the existing M25 corridor to solve the problems on the M25. We have been doing some work, a study looking at alternative strategic corridors to take traffic off the M25 and a parallel study to investigate the potential for improvements in the local road network and also public transport.

“From an SRN perspective we have looked specifically at two corridors and there does appear to be merit in a High Wycombe to Guildford corridor, where there are existing routes at the moment, but to make that really viable there would need to be significant investment over a period of time to create a much more attractive route.

“There does appear to be a viable argument to do that but we cannot conclude the study yet, we have to look at how we bring the multimodal, the local and the SRN packages together and I think it will be something that would be difficult to achieve particularly in the shorter term. But it does have the potential to be phased over a number of RIS periods and to tackle it in sections.”

It's not clear if he means to utilise the A331 and A31 or a new corridor across from the M3 to Guildford. At any rate a new route would be needed between the A329(M) and M3.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=uk

[A303Chris]

Highways England network planning director Jeremy Bloom in December:

“M25 SW quadrant has been quite a difficult one. The M25 on the west side of London is probably the most congested and the most difficult part of the strategic road network. Anyone that has tried to drive it knows how difficult it is for most of the day, and we have looked at it in depth but the conclusion from the study is that while we can make the most of and maximise the use of the existing infrastructure, widening within the existing corridor is probably not the right solution. It’s quite an urban area and it would just suck in more traffic.

“So the decision was taken that we would look outside of the existing M25 corridor to solve the problems on the M25. We have been doing some work, a study looking at alternative strategic corridors to take traffic off the M25 and a parallel study to investigate the potential for improvements in the local road network and also public transport.

“From an SRN perspective we have looked specifically at two corridors and there does appear to be merit in a High Wycombe to Guildford corridor, where there are existing routes at the moment, but to make that really viable there would need to be significant investment over a period of time to create a much more attractive route.

“There does appear to be a viable argument to do that but we cannot conclude the study yet, we have to look at how we bring the multimodal, the local and the SRN packages together and I think it will be something that would be difficult to achieve particularly in the shorter term. But it does have the potential to be phased over a number of RIS periods and to tackle it in sections.”

It's not clear if he means to utilise the A331 and A31 or a new corridor across from the M3 to Guildford. At any rate a new route would be needed between the A329(M) and M3.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/ ... clnk&gl=uk

Interesting stuff, just think if the M31 had been built it would have solved this congested quadrant.

Another part of the problem is that this section is solely within Surrey and if anyone has worked with Surrey they are obsessed with trying to reduce car ownership and promote trains, buses and cycling and are totally against new road building. Few issues with this, firstly Surrey has the highest car ownership in the country, secondly apart from Guildford and Woking bus provision and usage is low. Even subsidised bus routse fail as given the demographic and disposal income available in most of Surrey, bus transport is not high on priorities. A vast proportion use the train but Surrey and other local councils are against increasing car parks at stations as they want people to walk, cycle, use the bus to get to them. This is the crux of the matter, as this would take trips of the SRN if people could drive to the stations.

When I work in London and use the train, when I get back to Twyford, Berkshire, I don't want to hang about for 30 minutes for a bus, or change in to my lycra and cycle the 20 minutes home, I just want to get home even though I've used public transport for most of my trip.

Twyford wanted to double the size of the car park by adding a decking over the existing car park, but Wokingham BC refused as they said it was not sustainable. What's not sustainable then taking another 650 vehicles travelling long distances off the road and the council say we are in a climate emergency.

Unless Surrey CC and the Berkshire Unitaries change there views, the only way the HE's plans could come forward is by trunking the A329(M), A3095, A331 and A31

[Glom]

Yes. M31 goddamnit!

[WHBM]

It's one of those things. In the part of the country where there is some of the highest car ownership and usage, who doubtless are all regular M25 drivers and queuers, the virulently oppose any additional capacity, for themselves as much as anyone else, and say that others should use these rail services which do not exist.

Which sort of reminds me of this brilliant piece about support for public transport :

https://www.theonion.com/report-98-perc ... 1819565837

[Bryn666]

It's the epitome of self entitled driver syndrome.

How anyone defines being mortgaged to the eyeballs in a rubbishly connected part of the country where you have to drive a luxury car on credit to the eyeballs in order to look better than Martha at No 36 as success beats me.

[jackal]

One thing I'm curious about is why HE have taken it upon themselves to explore public transport options in this area. They don't know much about it or have any resources to spend on it (their capital budget is hypothecated from VED for roads).

Supposing they did make some specific public transport recommendations (which 5 years into this farcical study, they haven't), who exactly is supposed to be listening to them and opening the purse strings? By analogy, would HE build a strategic road because Network Rail said it was a good way of reducing train congestion?

[Bryn666]

One thing I'm curious about is why HE have taken it upon themselves to explore public transport options in this area. They don't know much about it or have any resources to spend on it (their capital budget is hypothecated from VED for roads).

Supposing they did make some specific public transport recommendations (which 5 years into this farcical study, they haven't), who exactly is supposed to be listening to them and opening the purse strings? By analogy, would HE build a strategic road because Network Rail said it was a good way of reducing train congestion?

HE do have a social responsibility to reduce the impact of their network.

Although given they often can't design what they're paid to do properly, letting them loose on things normally outside of their purview terrifies me.

[Norfolktolancashire]

It's the epitome of self entitled driver syndrome.

How anyone defines being mortgaged to the eyeballs in a rubbishly connected part of the country where you have to drive a luxury car on credit to the eyeballs in order to look better than Martha at No 36 as success beats me.

That doesn't happen in East Lancashire

[Enceladus]

My OH and I used the M25 when we holidayed in England last June/July and, despite my fears, the flow was fine, very heavy but moving in both directions. But then we only used the NW quadrant this time.

Dublin’s M50 C ring has awful traffic issues like the M25 and despite a massive rebuild/widening/upgrade between 2006 and 2009, it just filled up with even more traffic. I lay the blame at poor land use planning, urban sprawl, dependence on the car, a total lack of adequate rail capacity and no orbital rail routes.

I presume the only way to really address the M25 issue is high capacity, high speed rail and better integrated multi-modal transport solutions. And perhaps a partial outer Western orbital route connecting the M3 to the M40.

Can people be coaxed out of their cars if good quality, reliable rail systems are there as an alternative? I would like to think so but remain somewhat sceptical...

[Berk]

They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.

[Micro The Maniac]

It's not clear if he means to utilise the A331 and A31 or a new corridor across from the M3 to Guildford.

Well... High Wycombe to the M4 means the A404 - which means resolving Bisham.

As for the A331, don't forget that half of it is 50mph for one reason or the other... while the bulk of the A3095 is 50 or lower.