M25 south-west quadrant

[Johnathan404]

Alternatively... Farnborough Main to Milton Keynes Central, 05:56 from FNM arrives 08:02... but add approx 30 minutes to get to FNM (at that time of the morning it's a walk, but it's no quicker by bus anyway, given bus-stop locations and routes). I could drive to the station, and pay £9.70 for a day's parking, I suppose, since I have stuff to carry... Meanwhile the return route is 18:12/20:13 plus walk home. An extra three hours travel-time a day, and for the princely sum of £77.80 standard class since I have the audacity to want to travel at a time that is less inconvenient.

I'll stick with my car...

I agree with all of this but I'm not sure giving an example of when public transport is insufficient is an effective way of demonstrating that public transport shouldn't be improved! In particular you stress the price; that could easily be fixed with a bit of funding.

[Micro The Maniac]

I agree with all of this but I'm not sure giving an example of when public transport is insufficient is an effective way of demonstrating that public transport shouldn't be improved! In particular you stress the price; that could easily be fixed with a bit of funding.

I guess we're heading well off-topic here, but...

The last mile (or in my case, last two miles) is always the down-fall for public transport... when I have to spend thirty minutes getting to/from the station, when I can be on the motorway in less than five, any journey has an in-built bias. It is highly unlikely that the "local" bus service will improve enough to affect that.

That said, I do use the bus to the town centre on occasions, although it's just as quick to walk... and the walk is half way anyway.

[Berk]

I presume the only way to really address the M25 issue is high capacity, high speed rail and better integrated multi-modal transport solutions. And perhaps a partial outer Western orbital route connecting the M3 to the M40.

Can people be coaxed out of their cars if good quality, reliable rail systems are there as an alternative? I would like to think so but remain somewhat sceptical...

They should soon be available. Thameslink’s extended services are coming back in December, and Crossrail won’t be far away.

Can't wait to see that solving M25 congestion

By the time a motorway is as congested as the M25 SW quadrant it's virtually impossible to do anything for it with public transport. Most journeys can never be shifted (strategic, goods vehicles, shopping runs, families, rural origin/destination, etc) and the minority that can be will largely be replaced with new journeys, including from those previously making public transport distress purchases. Public transport investment will always run out before M25 suppressed demand.

Where there's the need, by all means build public transport infrastructure. Crossrail 1? Crossrail 2? Bring it on. More capacity and reduced journey times across London has got to be a good thing. But we should be realistic about what it can and can't achieve. Wishful thinking only gets us into HS2-style fiascos.

So basically... you need a rail equivalent of the Ringways or M25.

Whilst I would support that, I can’t really see it being popular amongst the folks who live there.

[Big L]

I'm aware of the Clapham route thanks - but that is far enough into London to count as London - in fact, it will be within the Congestion Charge Zone in 2021...

The train service will be in trouble if they have to start paying the congestion charge

[Johnathan404]

So basically... you need a rail equivalent of the Ringways or M25.

Whilst I would support that, I can’t really see it being popular amongst the folks who live there.

The clear difference between rail and roads - from a route planning point of view - is that changing between two roads is easy. Changing between two trains takes time and is a real psychological barrier for many.

For that reason alone an M25-style rail service would not work. But there is also the journey time consideration.

You are more likely to run a high-frequency and high-speed service along the core route through the middle, so an orbital route is going to need a lot of investment if it is to compare favourably. That investment is unlikely to be justified on what we just said was an unpopular route.

[jackal]

^ Yeah, if you think about the journeys that clog up the M25 they're predominantly of the M3-M25-M4 or A3-M25-M1 type, i.e. radial-orbital-radial. By the same token an orbital railway in the home counties would require at least two changes even for relatively short journeys. When you factor in the substantial walk/cycle/bus you're likely to have at each end to get to/from the stations it's a total non-starter compared to driving.

This explains why, globally, a far higher proportion of urban or near-urban motorways are orbital than is the case for mass transit. A road that just links other roads together is a very useful thing; a rail line doing the same is a white elephant.

[Berk]

Nonetheless, a rail connection linking Euston/King’s X and Waterloo would be a good thing. It would make a lot of ‘fiddly’ journeys easier.

[Berk]

So basically... you need a rail equivalent of the Ringways or M25.

Whilst I would support that, I can’t really see it being popular amongst the folks who live there.

The clear difference between rail and roads - from a route planning point of view - is that changing between two roads is easy. Changing between two trains takes time and is a real psychological barrier for many.

For that reason alone an M25-style rail service would not work. But there is also the journey time consideration.

You are more likely to run a high-frequency and high-speed service along the core route through the middle, so an orbital route is going to need a lot of investment if it is to compare favourably. That investment is unlikely to be justified on what we just said was an unpopular route.

Whilst that interpretation is correct, it’s very much based on a traditional service pattern.

If more direct, cross-London orbital routes and service patterns are introduced (e.g, Stevenage - Reading via the orbital), I could see investment going the other way. The big problem then would be lack of capacity on the radial routes (such as ECML/WCML etc).

[Fluid Dynamics]

So basically... you need a rail equivalent of the Ringways or M25.

Whilst I would support that, I can’t really see it being popular amongst the folks who live there.

The clear difference between rail and roads - from a route planning point of view - is that changing between two roads is easy. Changing between two trains takes time and is a real psychological barrier for many.

For that reason alone an M25-style rail service would not work. But there is also the journey time consideration.

You are more likely to run a high-frequency and high-speed service along the core route through the middle, so an orbital route is going to need a lot of investment if it is to compare favourably. That investment is unlikely to be justified on what we just said was an unpopular route.

Whilst that interpretation is correct, it’s very much based on a traditional service pattern.

If more direct, cross-London orbital routes and service patterns are introduced (e.g, Stevenage - Reading via the orbital), I could see investment going the other way. The big problem then would be lack of capacity on the radial routes (such as ECML/WCML etc).

I thought there had been a rail equivalent of the M25 for some time. Certainly for the south and south western sectors there's the Tonbridge to Redhill line, Redhill to Guildford and Guildford to Reading via the Blackwater Valley. Currently for passenger services it requires 3 changes. I expect it would take significant investment to make this a major non-changing route due to the likely impact on radial routes out of London. Having said that, I did once get a direct service from Birmingham New Street to Brighton that followed much of this route.

[trickstat]

The clear difference between rail and roads - from a route planning point of view - is that changing between two roads is easy. Changing between two trains takes time and is a real psychological barrier for many.

For that reason alone an M25-style rail service would not work. But there is also the journey time consideration.

You are more likely to run a high-frequency and high-speed service along the core route through the middle, so an orbital route is going to need a lot of investment if it is to compare favourably. That investment is unlikely to be justified on what we just said was an unpopular route.

Whilst that interpretation is correct, it’s very much based on a traditional service pattern.

If more direct, cross-London orbital routes and service patterns are introduced (e.g, Stevenage - Reading via the orbital), I could see investment going the other way. The big problem then would be lack of capacity on the radial routes (such as ECML/WCML etc).

I thought there had been a rail equivalent of the M25 for some time. Certainly for the south and south western sectors there's the Tonbridge to Redhill line, Redhill to Guildford and Guildford to Reading via the Blackwater Valley. Currently for passenger services it requires 3 changes. I expect it would take significant investment to make this a major non-changing route due to the likely impact on radial routes out of London. Having said that, I did once get a direct service from Birmingham New Street to Brighton that followed much of this route.

I am pretty sure there is nothing like that in the vicinity of the northern 'half' of the M25. For example, there are 4 lines heading to and from London that travel a reasonably substantial distance in Hertfordshire (from Euston, St Pancras, King's Cross & Liverpool Street) but there are no remaining lines that link them. I think the closest you get is in St Albans where the Abbey Line that branches off the WCML at Watford terminates about half a mile or so from the City station on the St Pancras line and Hertford, where Hertford North, which is on a loop off the ECML, is a similar distance from Hertford East which is on a branch off the Liverpool Street line.

[Berk]

Yes. It would be quite hard to link them all up, and would probably create a lot of opposition.

You might need to consider building the radial route out of town and having new stations, which would naturally introduce another changing point.

[c2R]

I am pretty sure there is nothing like that in the vicinity of the northern 'half' of the M25. For example, there are 4 lines heading to and from London that travel a reasonably substantial distance in Hertfordshire (from Euston, St Pancras, King's Cross & Liverpool Street) but there are no remaining lines that link them. I think the closest you get is in St Albans where the Abbey Line that branches off the WCML at Watford terminates about half a mile or so from the City station on the St Pancras line and Hertford, where Hertford North, which is on a loop off the ECML, is a similar distance from Hertford East which is on a branch off the Liverpool Street line.

And, in an act of sheer brilliance, the railways linking:
* Hertford East and Hertford North
* Hertford North and Welwyn Garden City
* Welwyn Garden City and St Albans

have all had crucial sections built upon.

[BOH]

Whilst that interpretation is correct, it’s very much based on a traditional service pattern.

If more direct, cross-London orbital routes and service patterns are introduced (e.g, Stevenage - Reading via the orbital), I could see investment going the other way. The big problem then would be lack of capacity on the radial routes (such as ECML/WCML etc).

I thought there had been a rail equivalent of the M25 for some time. Certainly for the south and south western sectors there's the Tonbridge to Redhill line, Redhill to Guildford and Guildford to Reading via the Blackwater Valley. Currently for passenger services it requires 3 changes. I expect it would take significant investment to make this a major non-changing route due to the likely impact on radial routes out of London. Having said that, I did once get a direct service from Birmingham New Street to Brighton that followed much of this route.

I am pretty sure there is nothing like that in the vicinity of the northern 'half' of the M25. For example, there are 4 lines heading to and from London that travel a reasonably substantial distance in Hertfordshire (from Euston, St Pancras, King's Cross & Liverpool Street) but there are no remaining lines that link them. I think the closest you get is in St Albans where the Abbey Line that branches off the WCML at Watford terminates about half a mile or so from the City station on the St Pancras line and Hertford, where Hertford North, which is on a loop off the ECML, is a similar distance from Hertford East which is on a branch off the Liverpool Street line.

There certainly is a semi-circular orbital type by-pass line in North London - called the North London Line.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_London_line

About 20 years ago there was a direct service from Basingstoke to Ipswich, avoiding any of the London terminus stations by using the North London Line orbital line - the railway equivalent of being able to get from the M3 round to the A12 without going through central London. So it certainly does exist....but unfortunately clogged up by suburban commuter style stopping services called London Overground which do not mix with long distance higher speed services!

[Stevie D]

Farnborough to Milton Keynes avoiding London?

Can be done with a single change at Clapham Junction, running hourly, which is cheaper and quicker than getting the Tube from Waterloo to Euston.

[Stevie D]

I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.

It's moderately useful if you want to make a short orbital journey but no good as a 'bypass' for London. There are several radial lines that don't have an interchange with it at all, and many of those that do connect with it are only served by local stopping trains. Clapham Junction and Stratford are the best connected in terms of regional services, but to get onto the GWML, WCML, MML or ECML involves at least 2 changes. With it being an orbital stopping service, it's a slow route as well if you are going far round the circle.

[Big L]

I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.

It's moderately useful if you want to make a short orbital journey but no good as a 'bypass' for London. There are several radial lines that don't have an interchange with it at all, and many of those that do connect with it are only served by local stopping trains. Clapham Junction and Stratford are the best connected in terms of regional services, but to get onto the GWML, WCML, MML or ECML involves at least 2 changes. With it being an orbital stopping service, it's a slow route as well if you are going far round the circle.

But I was replying to someone that had said that you had to go in and out of London because there was no alternative. You can argue how useful it is, but not whether it exists.

[BOH]

Farnborough to Milton Keynes avoiding London?

Can be done with a single change at Clapham Junction, running hourly, which is cheaper and quicker than getting the Tube from Waterloo to Euston.

Read the earlier posts just a few behind yours to see why this is impractical..

[Berk]

I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.

It's moderately useful if you want to make a short orbital journey but no good as a 'bypass' for London. There are several radial lines that don't have an interchange with it at all, and many of those that do connect with it are only served by local stopping trains. Clapham Junction and Stratford are the best connected in terms of regional services, but to get onto the GWML, WCML, MML or ECML involves at least 2 changes. With it being an orbital stopping service, it's a slow route as well if you are going far round the circle.

But I was replying to someone that had said that you had to go in and out of London because there was no alternative. You can argue how useful it is, but not whether it exists.

I think orbital in this context should mean the same as M25 - outside London.

The North London Line really isn’t orbital, and it definitely wouldn’t cope with another intensive service. It is mainly there to function as a London commuter line.

It’s also hard to see how you could design a new-build railway that would effectively link up the western half of the M25. It’s very developed now, and where it isn’t it’s likely to meet with environmental concerns.

Even if you went ahead and built it, it’s hard to see where it could link up with stations on existing routes.

Perhaps the best way would just to build the line as a self-contained link (a bit like HS1 for Kent services). But if it doesn’t interchange with anywhere, you’d have to run direct services to the next major station on the existing route (e.g. Reading, Farnborough, Guildford etc.).

That’s the only way I can see of making it work.

[WHBM]

I'm reasonably certain there is an outer London railway loop that saves you from going into the centre and going across underground. Overground, I believe it's called.

It's moderately useful if you want to make a short orbital journey but no good as a 'bypass' for London. There are several radial lines that don't have an interchange with it at all, and many of those that do connect with it are only served by local stopping trains. Clapham Junction and Stratford are the best connected in terms of regional services, but to get onto the GWML, WCML, MML or ECML involves at least 2 changes. With it being an orbital stopping service, it's a slow route as well if you are going far round the circle.

But I was replying to someone that had said that you had to go in and out of London because there was no alternative. You can argue how useful it is, but not whether it exists.

I guess you don't live here. I tried it (once) coming in on the Waterloo line, to get home to Canary Wharf. Got out at Clapham, worked out eventually where the train, way over the bridge, was, by the time I came down to the platform it was pulling out, had to wait 15 minutes for the next one. On the rather slow way it had a couple of lengthy stops at red signals between stations, and I still had to eventually change again at Canada Water. I started to think that if I had gone to Waterloo I would be home now.

[Berk]

Thinking some more (and remember this is just blue sky thinking), you could potentially have a route like this.

A new line branches off the ECML somewhere near Welham Green, taking a new, westerly bound route shadowing the M25 where possible (the main reason for this being it’s an already developed corridor).

You might have new stations co-sited on existing lines (near Radlett, Bricket Wood, King’s Langley). It then moves southwestwards, again with possible new stations near Chorleywood and Gerrard’s Cross.

It then joins the Great Western Main Line near Iver, which unlocks a range of journeys. You can go eastwards to the City, and beyond to Romford and Chelmsford, not to mention Heathrow, or you can go westwards to Slough, Maidenhead and Reading.

Whilst that’s the northern half taken care of, the southern half may be a bit more challenging.

There is already the North Downs Line, which someone mentioned, but I didn’t think that would be compatible with 100mph services. You won’t get anywhere if you can’t even offer medium speed services like that. Possibly build a new, parallel route alongside it??

Anyway, that would take you from Reading to Guildford and on to Redhill.

You could say the eastern side of the M25 has already been taken care of by HS1. My route would be to provide a range of semi-fast services with connections to existing mainlines, so customers aren’t forced to go via London.