M25 south-west quadrant

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A303Chris
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M25 south-west quadrant

Post by A303Chris »

I thought I would start a new post as I have been sent this today. It is the DfT page which details the presentations and reports given to stakeholders regarding the M25 south-west quadrant strategic study. It can be found here

The February 2018 pack has some interesting stuff in it, alright the usual stuff about moving from road to rail etc, but it acknowledges that there is no resilient capacity on the local road network through Surrey and as such the M25 carries a lot more traffic then it should. As a result a single incident and it is screwed. The Section from j10 to J16 is only is at 70mph for 50% of the day!

From Page 56 it suggests two new strategic roads inside and outside the M25, haven't we been here before. The outside one would run from the M40 at Wycombe to the A3 at Guidlford but they are unsure if it would be a on line or off line route. The on line suggestion of improvements to the A404/M4/A329(M)/A322/M3/A331/A31 is to convoluted for me.

Some off it is blue sky, but the thought process to me is a bit what goes around comes around.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Chris5156 »

Really interesting. It illustrates why the South West Quadrant study outcome was so disappointing - there's a real shortage of options in this area without doing something drastic and disruptive in a very leafy part of the home counties whose residents will rarely consent to anything new at all.

The diagram on page 18 appears to have lifted junction names and types from CBRD's Motorway Database - it describes Denham as a "Partially-unrolled cloverleaf interchange" which is not always the terminology the DfT uses, Thorpe as a "Whirlpool", and Poyle and Staines as "Non-standard interchange" :)
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Ritchie333 »

The "M31" corridor online upgrade is not practical. At Bracknell, the road comes crashing to a halt by the railway and there's no way to get a grade separated route through the suburbs, the A31 over the Hog's Back still has at-grade right turns and a lack of space to widen (given it runs on the crest of a hill), and the Guildford Bypass is now the lowest quality part of the route between the M25 and M27.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 »

The fact all the rail routes are also >100% seating capacity shows just how pathetic the south east's transport system really is. Supposedly we are a first world nation...

It's embarrassing and the politicians should be held to account for being so damn spineless and refusing to put the bigger picture ahead of whinging that "there's nothing we can do".
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Barkstar »

I regularly head to Woking from up north and do the M40 - M25 round to Jct 11. I be very happy if there was an reasonable option to leave the M40 before hitting the M25. If my journey is messed up traffic wise it is most often the M25 - 2nd place goes to the M42. Non of it helped by the myriad of changes to the lanes which positively encourages middle lane morons and bewilders the occasional motorway user.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

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Bryn666 wrote:The fact all the rail routes are also >100% seating capacity shows just how pathetic the south east's transport system really is. Supposedly we are a first world nation...

It's embarrassing and the politicians should be held to account for being so damn spineless and refusing to put the bigger picture ahead of whinging that "there's nothing we can do".
Try working down, here!!!! Any suggestions to improve transport capacity are met with NIMBY no's, with the politicians supporting them. Then they complain that they can't go anywhere.

Leafy Surrey is the worse, coincidently where the M25 south west quadrant is.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Ritchie333 »

I still think it's better than East Sussex, which has no motorways, hardly any dual carriageways and one of the principal trunk roads has a hairpin bend with an advisory 15mph speed limit here. Still, it does mean at least you can still get a train from Ashford to Brighton; the line was supposed to be closed in the Beeching Report but never was because the roads were (and are) rubbish.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Bryn666 »

Same as the M60 northern area (also under study...).

Barbara Keeley MP thinks she's scored a great victory preventing widening of the M60 between J12-15 but it's her constituents who clog the road up every morning and then moan about the congestion! Utter morons.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by c2R »

One of the ideas on the local improvements section suggests a tunnel between the A40 and the M1... I think additional improvements to the north circular would help, but I'm not really sure what they're proposing here - a tunnel between the M4 and A40 would probably be of more use, and improved free flowing connections onto the M4, M1, and M40 (heading out of London).
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Scratchwood »

There are several obvious reasons why rail isn't attractive for these journeys

The rail network is predominantly designed to take people into and out of London, not around it.
The rail network is at capacity or in some cases, due to level crossings running an increased service would gridlock local areas as the roads would never be open!
Railway stations generally serve the centre of towns. Great for shops and central offices, but no good for the industrial parks where all the major firms are located.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by ChrisH »

Interesting to see more info on this after some radio silence for the last year.

There is some good info on origin-destination flows and the patterns to and from the radial motorways; also the large number of short-ish trips within the area.

From a strategic point of view I think the best corridor to look at is from M25 j10, under Woking, to M3 j3, east of Bracknell and up to join the A404(M). This would allow all longer distance trips between the North and the Channel Ports to avoid the Heathrow section of M25 entirely, and also allow the outer trips between M40, M4, M3 to take place outside the M25.

Intrigued to see an “inner” corridor along the A312 as I’m pretty sure a certain London transport authority would have something to say on that.

Also note some disappointing lack of clarity around Freight and TDM elements, which are very tricky in this environment and don’t have much of a hook to hang off in terms of temporary changes or requirements to change.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by jackal »

Good to see some specific proposals for this, many of them very worthwhile (e.g. additional grade separation at Handy Cross, M4 J8/9 and M3 J3). Still, I get the sense of the best of a bad job after the original SW quadrant report arbitrarily rejected the only realistic way of relieving the M25, which is to improve the M25 itself. I can't see much traffic diverting to an improved outer corridor considering it's 40 miles long - more than twice as long as the M40-A3 section of M25.
Outer orbital - Copy.PNG
Chris5156 wrote:The diagram on page 18 appears to have lifted junction names and types from CBRD's Motorway Database - it describes Denham as a "Partially-unrolled cloverleaf interchange" which is not always the terminology the DfT uses
The only 'official' name I know for this type is 'Variant of Figure 5/4.1b Restricted in Height to Reduce Environmental Impact'. Really trips off the tongue! (Figure 5/4.1b is a cloverstack or '4 way - 3 level' in DMRB parlance.)
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by WHBM »

A303Chris wrote:The February 2018 pack has some interesting stuff in it, alright the usual stuff about moving from road to rail etc.
Those knowledgeable about the area will be struggling to recall any railway route which adequately parallels M25 flows, on either side. For many of the quite short distance flows, such as St Albans to Slough (about 20 minutes), or to Heathrow from just about any direction, the only rail route is into Central London and out again.

Ever increasing traffic restrictions in Central London (the Embankment Cycle Super Highway being the last straw) have progressively driven London traffic out to the M25 which never used it before, and which was presumably never modelled. Canary Wharf to Heathrow (especially Terminal 5) can now be quicker at certain times via M11/M25 North than through London, although nearly 3 times the distance.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by A303Chris »

WHBM wrote: Those knowledgeable about the area will be struggling to recall any railway route which adequately parallels M25 flows, on either side.
The only really suitable route is the North Downs Line between Reading, Guildford, Reigate and Gatwick. However the relatively fast trains are still slow. Quickest Wokingham to Guildford , which I use is 27 minutes, usual 36 minutes. Reading to Gatwick, fast once every 2 hours, 1 hour 17 minutes, normal every 30 minutes 1 hour 31 minutes. Given the timetable is a work of fiction and delays and cancellations are common given the route involves crossing the main Brighton Line and South West Lines, On an average run you can do it in an hour, so people drive.

You have to be imaginative though to avoid queues when they happen on the south west quadrant.

I was at East Grinstead, Friday afternoon before last and the M25 was screwed due to an accident between J8 and J10. Knowing this was terminal for all roads in the vicinity, I went down to Handcross on the B2110, A23 to the A272 then to Petworth, up the A283 to Milford, then A3, A31, A331, A3095 then the A329(M). Added 25 miles to journey and it took 1 hour 50 minutes instead of just over an hour, but at least I was moving averaging 40 to 50 mph outside villages and towns and saw some nice scenery.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

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Scratchwood wrote:There are several obvious reasons why rail isn't attractive for these journeys

The rail network is predominantly designed to take people into and out of London, not around it.
The rail network is at capacity or in some cases, due to level crossings running an increased service would gridlock local areas as the roads would never be open!
Railway stations generally serve the centre of towns. Great for shops and central offices, but no good for the industrial parks where all the major firms are located.
Good points, we were looking at a new railway station outside London, but Network Rail were quite clear, a new station would hold up trains in and out of London. Continuing DfT's main priority is journey's in and out of London as this is where the majority of fares are obtained!!!

Basically the idea of an intergrated transport system in Britain is impossible. You look at Munich big car parks by suburban stations, here not allowed as it encourages car journeys, people should walk, cycle or use the bus. After I have been in London for a day for work, when I get back to the station, I do not fancy a 20 minute cycle (also the need to get changed), one hour walk or wait for an hourly service which will drop me off, still a 30 minute walk from my house
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Vierwielen »

Scratchwood wrote:There are several obvious reasons why rail isn't attractive for these journeys

The rail network is predominantly designed to take people into and out of London, not around it.
The rail network is at capacity or in some cases, due to level crossings running an increased service would gridlock local areas as the roads would never be open!
Railway stations generally serve the centre of towns. Great for shops and central offices, but no good for the industrial parks where all the major firms are located.
The railway service in the South-west fails to get people into and out of London properly. Waterloo Station is on the wrong side of the river. The City and Waterloo Line is a typical bodge and should never have been built. Instead, one of main lines into Waterloo should have ducked underground and linked up with the Great Northern line at Moorgate. The only missing section of tunnel is the 500 metre section between Bank and Moorgate. Oops, I forgot, the City and Waterloo line trains are miniature trains, the Great Northern Line uses overhead power lines at 25 kV AC while South Western Rail uses a third rail at 750 V DC - another series of bodges. So, rather than run through trains, anybody working in The City and living to the South West of London has to take two trains or a train and a bus. For the benefit of those who have not had the pleasure of using the City and Waterloo line at Rush hour, it is jam-packed solid. I have often watched four trains laving before being able to squeeze, sardine-like onto a carriage in conditions that would have the RSPCA up in arms if sheep were to be transported in that manner. Maybe Crossrail 2 might help, but it does not go to the City.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by WHBM »

A303Chris wrote: Basically the idea of an intergrated transport system in Britain is impossible. You look at Munich big car parks by suburban stations, here not allowed as it encourages car journeys, people should walk, cycle or use the bus. After I have been in London for a day for work, when I get back to the station, I do not fancy a 20 minute cycle (also the need to get changed), one hour walk or wait for an hourly service which will drop me off, still a 30 minute walk from my house
The latter points here are an excellent summary of why, in one of the most sophisticated and developed countries in the world, people just do not want to live in the way politicians suggest.

I have written about this before, but back in my early transport planning days we looked at a large P+R car park at Boston Manor, just where the M4 into London narrows down from 3 lanes to 2 and passes under the Piccadilly Line. This failed as a scheme on so many grounds, which both politicians and journalists at the time just could not see.

- There is an enormous suppressed demand for car travel in this quadrant, and rail travel is a Distress Purchase. So one aspect would be a car park there would considerably divert passengers FROM trains, particularly from the Reading to Paddington line, who would divert to driving further in if the car park was provided. The general desire was to drive as far as you can, especially on a motorway, and use public transport only where things became unviable.

- The expensive (even then) Heathrow car parks would suffer diversion from people who, instead of parking at the airport, would park here and get the Underground outwards.

- The Piccadilly Line inward to Central London had no surplus capacity anyway at peak periods.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Scratchwood »

ChrisH wrote:Intrigued to see an “inner” corridor along the A312 as I’m pretty sure a certain London transport authority would have something to say on that.
They could call it "Ringway 3", I'm sure that would go down well with the locals :D
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by Johnathan404 »

A303Chris wrote:Good points, we were looking at a new railway station outside London, but Network Rail were quite clear, a new station would hold up trains in and out of London. Continuing DfT's main priority is journey's in and out of London as this is where the majority of fares are obtained!!!
Although for clarity we should say that the problem with being 'held up' in practical terms isn't that commuters will get to London one minute later, but that by spending longer on one section it will mess everything up and potentially reduce the number of trains which can get to London that morning.
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Re: M25 south-west quadrant

Post by SarahJ »

I was thinking about this the other day. I live in Brighton and now and then drive to near Stokenchurch to visit some friends. The trip is often a messy jam, and even at 1am I've encountered jams on the SW section.
Anyway, last weekend I had plans to do the trip, but also look at a 'new' car at both Cobham and Hindhead. Doing one on the way up, the other on the way down. A 23 was slow(ish), but worse S/B. M25 was slow, slow, slow and also showing big jam between 16 and 17. I pulled off onto the A3 and then onto Cobham. Coopers Cobham was as much use as a chocolate fireguard. Usual snotty BMW dealer, don't return calls, only keen on selling you a car for £40.000, not for £18,000. Found out the car was stored 'somewhere else'. Miffed off, but noticing the jam was M4-M40 decided to take the A3 into London, head off towards Barnes and join the A40. Pulled of the A3 down Roehampton lane, and some some reason decided the join the South Circular. Madness. Slow, so slow, cross the river on to the North circular and it was solid pass the M4 and up to Hanger lane. A40 at least, free flowing (E/B was a different matter), but then just before Denham we came to a halt, for 20 + mins. Something going on, but then cleared and off we went. By now madness had set in and I was hitting 90 before stokenchurch.
So now sunday. Plan was, leave S/C, head to the A3 via the M40/M25, then look at the car at Hindhead, then head down either to Petersfield and take the A272, or down to the A27. M40 was running well, too well. not even slow through the 2 lane section at High Wycombe, and then we joined the M25 and just stopped. Slow,. Slow. Meanwhile the VMS's were saying A3 closed at Milford. Not sure where this was, but one message did say Hindhead tunnel closed. :evil: So that plan was out. Traffic was start stop all the way passed the M3 and A3. A sign said bad congestion between 7 and 8 (this must have been good congestion), so we came off at the A24 and went via Dorking and Boxhill. Was slow, but steady with the D2 bits running well. Only bad bit was the roundabout north or Horsham where you meet the A264. It was difficult to get out with a line of cars coming up the A24 N/B then heading east on the 264. But home. Journey time 3 hours.

For this trip, the section of the M25 is really the only way, but I don't think more lanes would help, there just needs to be a decent outer and inner avoiding routes.

Of course, slightly off topic. The hindhead tunnel was closed. There is now no avoiding route with the old road being ripped up and grassed. The HA talked about getting ideas from Switzerland, including lane control, and I've been over there when a contra flow was running with only the lights, red crosses and lots of speed signs, and this was going to keep the Hindhead tunnel open. But I guess we are just a bit too risk averse to use that here in the UK. I know the equipment in the A27 Southwick tunnel has been allowed to go to rot, with complete closure of both bores the default. Oh well!!! :roll:
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