The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.
There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).
Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.
Klepsydra wrote: ↑Sat Jun 02, 2018 11:30
A couple of London ones:
Great Cambridge Roundabout (would be perfect but for the A111 shoving its oar in and messing the entire thing up)
The irony there being that the A111 (Hedge Lane) was the original continuation of Silver Street, dating back to at least 1867 (from old-maps.co.uk). It's the A10 (originally A108) and A406 that are the interlopers, both dating back to the 1920s/30s.
What doesn't help with the traffic situation at the aforementioned roundabout, however, is the conversion of the East to North curve connecting Hedge Lane to the Great Cambridge Road into a cycle lane, forcing all traffic to go via Taplow Road, the short stretch of North Circular Road, and the roundabout to get between the two.
Similar applies on the opposite side of the roundabout, courtesy of the late 80s underpass, with significant queues building up on Ostliffe Road and the mainline of the Northbound A10 for much of the day, as I'm sure you're all too painfully aware!
Deliberately engineered for left turn only when that way led to a mini roundabout, the roundabout was removed over 5 years ago and the road markings changed to Right turn only which requires you to turn right across the exit of a roundabout without going too wide as then you would encroach on a bus lane for an instant fine and with that roundabout exit servicing the rail air coaches too and from Reading BR which are not renowned for giving way to anything.
To add some spice that is the only exit from the Forbury part of town during the day due to the access rules through the marketplace which includes the main town centre secure motorbike parks. Apparently it does not fall foul of any safety rules because "it is in a 20mph limit" which is true by about 1 meter -https://goo.gl/maps/ZVgVZQuXMgz
I used to work in the office building on the right of the picture (1989/90) and I've been in the pub on the left a few times too: it used to be Brakspear's place. The traffic was not too bad around there in those days.
Rising Sun was a great Rock/Goth/live music pub spent many nights in there, then shut reopened as a gay/foodie pub and now shut again
Not on topic, but the former rock/goth pub in Carlisle, the Cumberland Arms, was exposed as a meet up place, what they call a munch, for people who are in the S and M scene. Not long afterwards it closed down and is now a Thai restaurant. Interesting what happens to some of these places.
There's a junction on the A9 that's bad for accidents. The one in Tain which I know there's 2 but the one is near Asda and most accidents happen there. So I would nominate the A9 at Tain junction.
Rachel Harper, A Scottish Vehicle Spotter and Road enthusiast in Scotland.
The A406/A41 Brent Cross junction just about works, but is far too small and massively complicated due to all the roads connecting to the main slip roads, to serve the shopping centre. https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.57671 ... 184091,18z
It's especially bad in the SE corner where there are also awkward crossings like this one where eastbound traffic on Tilling Road (the southern access road for Brent Cross and superstores on the south of the A406) has to cross over traffic leaving the A406 to go westbound onto Tilling Road https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.57676 ... 312!8i6656
Or this one where traffic coming from Golders Green along Highfield Road (including a bus route), to access Tilling Road has to cross the southbound sliproad onto the A41 (a main route for M1 traffic going towards central London) TWICE! https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.57569 ... 312!8i6656 https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.57615 ... 312!8i6656
It's still a bone of contention to me that nothing from Northern Ireland has been featured on Bad Junctions. I can think of two bad ones in terms of congestion - namely the A1/M1 junction at Sprucefield and the M2/M3/Westlink interchange in Belfast. However I note that Chris says on his page "... in this section, we're looking for bad design, not just the most congested places."
In that spirit, I think a big contender would have to be the M1/M12 interchange. It opened in 1967 as a fleeflow junction giving access to the M1 to the east only. A bridge was provided for the later addition of free flowing links to the M1 to the west, but the slips themselves were not built at that time due to low demand for the movement. Those were finally added in 1991. But instead of following the original freeflow design the designers connected them into the existing road with an at-grade roundabout! So you have these two enormous pairs of freeflow sliproads all meeting at a tiny little roundabout. It's just tear-jerking. So near and yet so far.
Steven wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 20:36
And the M12 roundabout even has a footpath around it.
Needless to say, I think it's brilliant, in a terrible sort of way.
The best bit is that when you come out of Craigavon and get to the roundabout, you face these enormous and wholly redundant give-way signs with the plate "GIVE WAY to traffic from RIGHT" underneath them.
What makes it even better is that at this point, the only traffic coming from the right is either a) trying to get back on the westbound M1 having exited it by mistake or b) switching between the westbound and eastbound carriageways of the M1. I strongly suspect neither of these is a common occurrence.
Never driven it myself, has anyone on here driven it? Looks dreadful and somewhat dangerous to boot.
I'm getting a bit suspicious you're spying on me, since after my trip to Skegness last weekend we were in Southend for the day yesterday! We've got family in the area so go through from time to time to see them. I think I'd describe it more "odd" than necessarily bad, and with the 40mph limit it feels reasonably safe, but I've not gone through in the rush hour, nor did I go through when it was still NSL a few years ago. There's a couple of old threads on it here and here.
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 14:12
Meanwhile, can I add the complex at Fiveways Corner, Croydon, to this list? It's where A232 intersects with A23, and both are very busy. B271 and B275 are also part of the mix. There are forests of traffic lights, and some horrhigible conflicts where westbound A232 traffic turns right across eastbound traffic to use the cutoff via Epsom Road right by Waddon station. At peak time, it's jam central, but I can see that demolition to facilitate a better solution might be tricky. But then again, this *is* Croydon, where they knocked down half the town centre to build an underpass and a flyover.
Another vote for this Junction. Awful. It was under TFL consultation for improvement and the obvious solution was one of the proposals, being a flyover for the A232 over the tracks near Waddon Station. However, TFL didn't go for that. The current proposals are highlighted here.
The whole damn mess of Fiveways, the railway bridge, and the A232 turnoff to Sutton on the other side of the bridge, are well worthy of nomination as one unit. I sometimes wonder how the pub in the middle of it all can stay open. I've never seen anyone in the beer garden at the front -- I should think your beer would be half diesel fumes if you tried to sup it there.
You listening, Chris?
"I went to a planet without bilateral symmetry and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
crb11 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 23:50
I'm getting a bit suspicious you're spying on me, since after my trip to Skegness last weekend we were in Southend for the day yesterday! We've got family in the area so go through from time to time to see them. I think I'd describe it more "odd" than necessarily bad, and with the 40mph limit it feels reasonably safe, but I've not gone through in the rush hour, nor did I go through when it was still NSL a few years ago. There's a couple of old threads on it here and here.
Haha I promise I'm not
I love the name 'Fortune of War', the name deserves a better a junction. I guess this kind of botch we should come to expect on a road that ploughs through a densely populated urban area. Not sure I'd fancy trying to join the A127 here at a busy period.
Never driven it myself, has anyone on here driven it? Looks dreadful and somewhat dangerous to boot.
I've driven it. Had the shock of my life, quite poorly signposted (or I wasn't paying sufficient attention) and I hit it doing about 10mph too much. Really quite hairy.
Surely it wouldn't have cost the earth to straighten out the main carriageways when it stopped being a roundabout.
Took it at 30mph on the way back and it felt a bit safer, but it's definitely a weird one
Chris Bertram wrote: ↑Mon Jun 04, 2018 14:12
Meanwhile, can I add the complex at Fiveways Corner, Croydon, to this list? It's where A232 intersects with A23, and both are very busy. B271 and B275 are also part of the mix. There are forests of traffic lights, and some horrhigible conflicts where westbound A232 traffic turns right across eastbound traffic to use the cutoff via Epsom Road right by Waddon station. At peak time, it's jam central, but I can see that demolition to facilitate a better solution might be tricky. But then again, this *is* Croydon, where they knocked down half the town centre to build an underpass and a flyover.
Another vote for this Junction. Awful. It was under TFL consultation for improvement and the obvious solution was one of the proposals, being a flyover for the A232 over the tracks near Waddon Station. However, TFL didn't go for that. The current proposals are highlighted here.
The whole damn mess of Fiveways, the railway bridge, and the A232 turnoff to Sutton on the other side of the bridge, are well worthy of nomination as one unit. I sometimes wonder how the pub in the middle of it all can stay open. I've never seen anyone in the beer garden at the front -- I should think your beer would be half diesel fumes if you tried to sup it there.
You listening, Chris?
I'll vote for this one too. I think I first drove it a couple of years ago and I find certain movements very easy to get wrong unless you do them regularly. In particular, when approaching from the south, I have found it all too easy to miss the right turn onto the A232 that goes towards Croydon town centre and other destinations further east. I am glad I have yet to negotiate this junction at peak times because I suspect it is pretty awful.
crb11 wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 23:50
I'm getting a bit suspicious you're spying on me, since after my trip to Skegness last weekend we were in Southend for the day yesterday! We've got family in the area so go through from time to time to see them. I think I'd describe it more "odd" than necessarily bad, and with the 40mph limit it feels reasonably safe, but I've not gone through in the rush hour, nor did I go through when it was still NSL a few years ago. There's a couple of old threads on it here and here.
Haha I promise I'm not
I love the name 'Fortune of War', the name deserves a better a junction. I guess this kind of botch we should come to expect on a road that ploughs through a densely populated urban area. Not sure I'd fancy trying to join the A127 here at a busy period.
It wasn't quite so densly populated when it was a roundabout and the pub was there. (The Fortune of War of course). Travelling as a child in the 1970's to my aunt's house in Rayleigh along the A127 and it was still relativley rural view for the motorist. Basildon and Laindon have continued to grow and the houses here are all on empty ground or where the pub and its gardens were. I shouldn't wonder that Wickford will eventually also be built to the edge of the road.
These two are too close to each other. Motorists joining from J7 and wishing to stay on the motorway need to get into the middle lane pretty quickly, otherwise they will leave the M3 at J8 and find themselves on the A303! (the M3 decreases form a D3 to a D2 motorway at this junction). According to Google Earth, the distance between the end of the solid white lines the end of the "hatched nose" (I don't know the official term) at J7 and the start of the solid white lines at the "hatched nose" at J8 is 860 metres! When M3:J4a was first mooted, I read reports that there had to be at least 2 km between the junction and Fleet Services. It appears that this did not apply at J7/8.
M8 J15/16
Distance between "hatched noses" is about 300m w/b or about 450m e/b. The sliproads at J15 (closest to J16) join/exit on the RIGHT whereas the J16 sliproads are on the left side. (and there's 3 lanes of M8 in between the slip lanes (both sides)) Good luck joining at J15 and exiting at J16 (or vice versa)
nirs wrote: ↑Mon Jul 02, 2018 19:55
It's still a bone of contention to me that nothing from Northern Ireland has been featured on Bad Junctions. I can think of two bad ones in terms of congestion - namely the A1/M1 junction at Sprucefield and the M2/M3/Westlink interchange in Belfast. However I note that Chris says on his page "... in this section, we're looking for bad design, not just the most congested places."
In that spirit, I think a big contender would have to be the M1/M12 interchange. It opened in 1967 as a fleeflow junction giving access to the M1 to the east only. A bridge was provided for the later addition of free flowing links to the M1 to the west, but the slips themselves were not built at that time due to low demand for the movement. Those were finally added in 1991. But instead of following the original freeflow design the designers connected them into the existing road with an at-grade roundabout! So you have these two enormous pairs of freeflow sliproads all meeting at a tiny little roundabout. It's just tear-jerking. So near and yet so far.
Yes, in terms of design, I would agree that the M1/M12 is really substandard; it did take me by surprised when I first encountered it - and it probably will never change now - an abomination for all eternity.
Also agree about the NI M11/M12 interchange. I mean really how much extra cost would an extra bridge have been at this junction? It’s a pathetic mess now with that cheap roundabout obstructing the free flow, and has got steadily worse as Craigavon has grown and developed over the past 20 years.
M1/A1 Sprucefield is a total dogs dinner. The original 1960s trumpet junction worked just fine but with all the retail they added here (bad planning IMO) the J8 addition as a dumbbell only made things much worse. There are plans for a full freeflow by-pass here but it’s years away...
There are many contenders for Bad Junction in the Republic. Some I can think of to hand are the following:
M8 Dunkettle, Cork
M6/M17/M18 Rathmorrissey, Galway
M6 terminus Galway city east
M7 J23 Roscrea
M7 J24 Moneygall/Obama Plaza Services
M18/R352 Ennis
M18 Barefield
M18 Crusheen
M9 terminus/N24 Waterford city outskirts
rachandsarai wrote: ↑Sun Jun 17, 2018 18:08
There's a junction on the A9 that's bad for accidents. The one in Tain which I know there's 2 but the one is near Asda and most accidents happen there. So I would nominate the A9 at Tain junction.
So what is so bad about it ?
GSV doesnt show anything out of the ordinary, sight lines look OK and traffic on the A9 at Tain isnt that heavy as I recall.
Bull Green roundabout in Halifax town centre. It has pelican crossings five yards from the two main exits, which, when they turn red, cause traffic on the roundabout to tail back across it, bringing it to a standstill, blocking one or more of the entry points and functionally turning it into an oversized T-junction.
A167/A184 in Gateshead. Newcastle's central motorway does a pretty good job of getting traffic north and south across the city centre and onto the Tyne Bridge, but then comes slamming into this messy set of traffic lights. In particular the way that traffic heading south down the A167 wanting to turn right onto the A184 west has to go through the traffic lights twice really clogs this up, while the A184 braids around it and the traffic lights which facilitate this can back-up onto the junction.
The issue (as with many bad juncitons!) is that the junction is overloaded: it's dealing with north-south traffic across Tyneside, west-east traffic across Gateshead and local traffic in and out of Gateshead town centre/quayside. Traffic changing in Newcastle City Centre has reduced the through routes there, encouraging traffic onto the Central Motorway - which is fine in principle, but this junction holds the whole thing up.
I can think of two bad ones in terms of congestion - namely the A1/M1 junction at Sprucefield and the M2/M3/Westlink interchange in Belfast. However I note that Chris says on his page "... in this section, we're looking for bad design, not just the most congested places."
