Should the A64 east of York be dualled?

[NICK 647063]

As most have said York to Malton is a must without question, the traffic volumes alone justify dualling never mind the accidents which often lead to closures, add in farm traffic, pedestrians (of which we saw 2 double fatalities at the same location between York and Malton last year) and not to mention the time it takes to join from the many side roads.

I do also think the next stage should be planned in pretty quick after York to Malton is dualled and that’s improving the section east of Malton, an improved A64 between York and Malton will likely draw back a large amount of traffic that avoids the A64, although a chunk leaves at Malton onto the A169 I do believe Rillington will become a major bottleneck, although at present the village is busy the single sections from York restrict the flow of traffic eastwards, if that’s removed you will basically have Rillington traffic lights becoming the first major issue you hit, Rillington badly needs it’s bypass.

The A64 needs improvements without question.

[wrinkly]

Some junctions would have been closed with the rest becoming "two-level unctions with sliproads".

Would they have been extreme unctions?

[Berk]

Some junctions would have been closed with the rest becoming "two-level unctions with sliproads".

Would they have been extreme unctions?

I felt like that when I wanted to turn right (back to York) at Castle Howard!!

[Rillington]

As of right now, are there any definite proposals for any improvements of any kind of the A64 east of Hop Grove?

[NICK 647063]

As of right now, are there any definite proposals for any improvements of any kind of the A64 east of Hop Grove?

Yes! Well to be honest the scheme announced for roads period 2 was the Hopgrove junction improvement but the local MP thankfully got involved and spoke some common sense stating that a GSJ at Hopgrove was pointless without extending the dual carriageway east, so basically he has got together and an A64 growth partnership was formed, studies have been undertaken last year and the outcome backed up what we all know that the GSJ won’t stop the congestion only dualling would.

So basically we now have 6 options which are 2 forms of Junction improvement which don’t score very high as they don’t sort the issues on the A64 and 4 dualling options, 3 of which fully dual the gap between a York and Barton le willows, the last option is partial dualling to a new roundabout at towthorpe Moor lane, again this doesn’t score high as it doesn’t address the full issues but has been included due to the cost which is far cheaper.

The routes are due to be announced later this year with a preferred route selected next year, the latest update I saw was this could be in place and open by 2022.

So for the first time since the full A64 dualling was shelved decades ago we now have some progress, we have a wonderful MP and growth partnership now fighting for the full £250 million to get the 3 dualling options taken forward, they also are trying to push progress on the Crambeck to Malton section, so hopefully we are getting somewhere.

[Stevie D]

Does anyone consider alternative routes? The M62, A614, A165 seems a plausible alternative. From the north, going via the A174, avoiding the moors and A171 between Whitby and Scarborough might be another. A170? Avoid. It's not called the Blue Rinse Route for nothing.

The A614 can be slow – it's entirely single-carriageway and while it follows a good alignment for much of the route, the steady stream of caravans, coaches and dorisinayarises on a good summer's day can lead to slow queues. The Shiptonthorpe roundabout is a regular cause for congestion, where it crosses the busy A1079 at a small and oddly-shaped roundabout that has now had a service station and McDogs plugged into it.

The A64 should be the main route into Scarborough, and other routes used by traffic coming from that direction only. Traffic whose logical route is the A64 should not need to be dispersed to peripheral routes, increasing mileage and journey time and increasing traffic on those other roads just because of HE penny-pinching.

[Rillington]

As of right now, are there any definite proposals for any improvements of any kind of the A64 east of Hop Grove?

Yes! Well to be honest the scheme announced for roads period 2 was the Hopgrove junction improvement but the local MP thankfully got involved and spoke some common sense stating that a GSJ at Hopgrove was pointless without extending the dual carriageway east, so basically he has got together and an A64 growth partnership was formed, studies have been undertaken last year and the outcome backed up what we all know that the GSJ won’t stop the congestion only dualling would.

So basically we now have 6 options which are 2 forms of Junction improvement which don’t score very high as they don’t sort the issues on the A64 and 4 dualling options, 3 of which fully dual the gap between a York and Barton le willows, the last option is partial dualling to a new roundabout at towthorpe Moor lane, again this doesn’t score high as it doesn’t address the full issues but has been included due to the cost which is far cheaper.

The routes are due to be announced later this year with a preferred route selected next year, the latest update I saw was this could be in place and open by 2022.

So for the first time since the full A64 dualling was shelved decades ago we now have some progress, we have a wonderful MP and growth partnership now fighting for the full £250 million to get the 3 dualling options taken forward, they also are trying to push progress on the Crambeck to Malton section, so hopefully we are getting somewhere.

Thank you for that summary.

And do these proposals include a GSJ at Hop Grove?

[NICK 647063]

Thank you for that summary.

And do these proposals include a GSJ at Hop Grove?

Of the 2 options for junction improvements one is a full GSJ and the other basically makes the large Hopgrove roundabout and the small roundabout into one huge roundabout, like I say both options have very little benefit so will hopefully be ruled out and the full dualling taken forward with some sort of Hopgrove improvement incorporated.

[Rillington]

Making the Hope Grove junction a GSJ, regardless of any dualling, would make a significant difference and would reduce the huge tailbacks which form at that roundabout on a regular basis. That said, it would make much more sense if any dualling scheme included turning Hop Grove into a GSJ.

[NICK 647063]

Making the Hope Grove junction a GSJ, regardless of any dualling, would make a significant difference and would reduce the huge tailbacks which form at that roundabout on a regular basis. That said, it would make much more sense if any dualling scheme included turning Hop Grove into a GSJ.

The trouble is I have been involved in studies of the Hopgrove roundabout and the cause of the congestion is always down to the reduction from dual carriageway to single, basically every time the queue forms in the bottleneck 2 into 1 section which then backs up onto the Hopgrove which then back up for miles.

If you were to GSJ Hopgrove you would basically just be putting the queue onto a flyover but it’s been proven that if the dual carriageway was extended towards Malton then the Hopgrove can actually fuction as it is for a good few years without causing big hold ups.

In an ideal world the dualling and GSJ should be the same scheme but if one must be done first then the most beneficial is the dualling, the only issue is that in the studies I was involved with as I remember east of Hopgrove towards Malton we are dealing with traffic flows of between 22,000 to 24,000 AADT but then also we found we had over 6,000 Vehicles on surrounding routes that would likely be pulled back onto an improved A64, so this increase along with all the traffic heading to Hopgrove that currently uses North Lane as that would close is likely to cause extra issues at Hopgrove, anyway as far as I’m aware a team are working on traffic data now to come up with the best option.

[ScottB5411]

as far as I’m aware a team are working on traffic data now to come up with the best option.

I can save them a lot of time..... GSJ it and dual it! Needed this for decades

[Stevie D]

Making the Hope Grove junction a GSJ, regardless of any dualling, would make a significant difference and would reduce the huge tailbacks which form at that roundabout on a regular basis. That said, it would make much more sense if any dualling scheme included turning Hop Grove into a GSJ.

Not true.

Pretty much the only time that tailbacks form is when the A64(E) single-carriageway is snarled up. That means that the throughput is limited by the capacity of the S2, and the tailbacks are caused by the volume of traffic coming from the A64(W), A1036 and A1237. Grade-separating the junction won't allow any more traffic through that constriction – while it might slightly reduce journey times on the A64, by the principles of equal and opposite reactions that will increase journey times by just the same amount for traffic coming from A1036 and A1237, with no net benefit.

There is no point in putting in a GSJ at Hopgrove unless it is immediately followed by dualling to Malton – I'm not sure whether it makes sense to do it that way round or to dual the road first, but ideally they should be part of a combined scheme.

[Rillington]

Stevie, you're in a far better position to comment as you have local knowledge but I always thought it was staggering that they did what they did rather than creating a GSJ although forcing every motorist to stop is safer for all road users when compared to the previous situation that existed at Hop Grove.

I totally accept Nick's point re congestion being caused by the road going from two lanes to one lane but to force all traffic on such a major road to effectively stop will cause traffic to build up very quickly and I would imagine that many motorists spend huge amounts of time stopping and starting whilst they get through the traffic lights and it must take up to an hour if you are caught in a queue that backs up all the way to Grimston Bar.

The roundabout for through traffic needs to be eliminated and doing it as part of any dualling scheme seems to me to be the most logical way to do it.

[NICK 647063]

I’m really hoping that the GSJ and dualling are part of the same scheme but if one must happen first then the biggest benefit is dualling, the Hopgrove always draws very negative feedback and locals have never forgotten the £9 million spent on the traffic lights which they are always quick to point out were of no benefit of course this isn’t true the traffic lights allowed the A1237 to flow at Hopgrove so the queues on that approach vanished overnight although it was never the case they would help the A64. So I really feel the locals would love a huge amount spent on a flyover for it to just hold queuing traffic due to the bottleneck east of it, that’s why the dualling must come first then the junction after as no benefit will be felt by the GSJ alone.

The fact is the whole A64 was planned to be dualled over 20 years ago since then after it was shelved traffic has increased massively yet the A64 is still awaiting its improvements let’s hope this is the start.

[Stevie D]

Stevie, you're in a far better position to comment as you have local knowledge but I always thought it was staggering that they did what they did rather than creating a GSJ although forcing every motorist to stop is safer for all road users when compared to the previous situation that existed at Hop Grove.

I totally accept Nick's point re congestion being caused by the road going from two lanes to one lane but to force all traffic on such a major road to effectively stop will cause traffic to build up very quickly and I would imagine that many motorists spend huge amounts of time stopping and starting whilst they get through the traffic lights and it must take up to an hour if you are caught in a queue that backs up all the way to Grimston Bar.

OK, Hopgrove 101 ...

Back in the late 1990s and 2000s, Hopgrove suffered from two major problems:

• on busy days (particularly summer weekends in the morning), traffic heading for the coast would snarl up as the A64D2, A1036 and A1237 all fed into an S2 road, causing long tailbacks in all directions.
• at busy times (particularly evening peak), the principal flows were A64(W) to A64(E) and A1036/A1237 to A64(W). Traffic heading east along the A64 was generally unimpeded and had a continuous flow, meaning that traffic coming from Monks Cross and Clifton Moor and trying to turn right onto A64(W) had no break to get onto the roundabout, leading to 30 minute queues as a matter of course.

The first one of those can only be solved by dualling the road between Hopgrove and Malton. (Dualling beyond Malton is not necessary, as traffic levels between Malton and Scarbados are only about half the levels between York and Malton). The second one was solved by the upgrade, and queues that used to take 30 minutes now take no more than 3 minutes and often only 30 seconds.

When the plans were made to improve the roundabout in c.2008, there was no possibility of the road beyond Hopgrove being dualled in the foreseeable future. Building a flyover would probably have cost about twice as much as the upgrade we got, and without that dualling it would have delivered only very small additional benefits – not enough to justify the additional costs.

The traffic lights do prioritise traffic on the A64 over turning traffic, so at times when the eastbound outflow is running freely, all traffic has to slow down but a lot of traffic doesn't have to stop because the lights spend more than half the time on green for the A64. The only time there are significant queues at the roundabout are when the eastbound outflow is not flowing – it is not the roundabout that causes queues. If a flyover had been built, in free-flowing conditions it would save a few seconds but not enough to justify the additional costs – when the A64E is chuggered, it would potentially allow traffic from A64W to flow fractionally better but that would be at the expense of coast-bound traffic coming from A1036/A1237, so no net gain.

When the road is dualled, it will be a different story. There is likely to be a significant amount of repressed demand that is unleashed, and that additional traffic would put the roundabout under strain – so then there is justification for upgrading to a GSJ. If we had known 10 years ago that dualling would be on the cards then it might have made sense to future-proof the junction by grade-separating it, but without any certainty around that, it could have been an expensive gamble.

[NICK 647063]

That’s a wonderful response StevieD could not have put it better myself!

The next step has to be the dualling both the gaps between Malton and York then the Hopgrove upgrade, my biggest concern isn’t so much Hopgrove when the dual carriageway is complete between Hopgrove and Barton le willows but the fact crambeck to Malton will be left for a number of years until it’s upgraded that section will become a huge bottleneck, at present when traffic queues at the Hopgrove lane drop queue back to the A166/A1079 traffic can exit to avoid the queue but if the Hopgrove to Barton le willows section is dualled the lane drop happens at crambeck/Welburn so a queue will form as it become the first lane drop from the west but with very few suitable side roads to divert onto, that will lead to a huge tailback and villages like Welburn suffering, so really York to Malton should be one scheme to avoid this happening.

[jgharston]

There's already a roundabout on the A64 at the A1, I don't see a problem with a roundabout at Hopgrove as long as York-Malton is fully dualled. I regularly go through Hopgrove in both directions and about 25% of the time turn off to Monks Cross for petrol. I've timed my journey through and if I approach on red I've never had to wait longer than 30 seconds. It's an imperceptable pause, and it gives me a chance to wiggle my foot around. I don't know if the traffic flow is monitored to control the lights, but having lights gives the option of dynamically altering the lighting phases to optimise through-flow.

Dual York-Malton, bypass Rillington and Sherburn, job done.

[85CF380]

There's already a roundabout on the A64 at the A1, ……..

you forgot to mention that 50% of the traffic bypasses the roundabout by using the free-flow links - north to east & west to south.

[NICK 647063]

There's already a roundabout on the A64 at the A1, I don't see a problem with a roundabout at Hopgrove as long as York-Malton is fully dualled. I regularly go through Hopgrove in both directions and about 25% of the time turn off to Monks Cross for petrol. I've timed my journey through and if I approach on red I've never had to wait longer than 30 seconds. It's an imperceptable pause, and it gives me a chance to wiggle my foot around. I don't know if the traffic flow is monitored to control the lights, but having lights gives the option of dynamically altering the lighting phases to optimise through-flow.

Dual York-Malton, bypass Rillington and Sherburn, job done.

As already stated by others the A64 Bramham roundabout is used by Leeds traffic or traffic wishing to connect with the A1 North, the A64 A1 south is via free flow slips which bypass the roundabout, try closing the free flows during the day then you would see why they were added in the first place.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

There's already a roundabout on the A64 at the A1, I don't see a problem with a roundabout at Hopgrove as long as York-Malton is fully dualled. I regularly go through Hopgrove in both directions and about 25% of the time turn off to Monks Cross for petrol. I've timed my journey through and if I approach on red I've never had to wait longer than 30 seconds. It's an imperceptable pause, and it gives me a chance to wiggle my foot around. I don't know if the traffic flow is monitored to control the lights, but having lights gives the option of dynamically altering the lighting phases to optimise through-flow.

Dual York-Malton, bypass Rillington and Sherburn, job done.

As already stated by others the A64 Bramham roundabout is used by Leeds traffic or traffic wishing to connect with the A1 North, the A64 A1 south is via free flow slips which bypass the roundabout, try closing the free flows during the day then you would see why they were added in the first place.

And more traffic travelling to and from Leeds city centre is being encouraged to use the M1 and A63 instead of the A64.