UK to get first Dutch-style roundabout in Cambridge

[Al__S]

The crossing sites are mainly parallel crossings with push buttons, but to access the parallel crossing points from the adjoining roads, cyclists have to leave the carriageway, join a short section of shared use footway and then use a toucan crossing to be on the correct side of the junction to use the parallel facilities.

Princes Ave 3.jpg

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this.

[marconaf]

The crossing sites are mainly parallel crossings with push buttons, but to access the parallel crossing points from the adjoining roads, cyclists have to leave the carriageway, join a short section of shared use footway and then use a toucan crossing to be on the correct side of the junction to use the parallel facilities.

Princes Ave 3.jpg

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this.

Another triumph for highway engineers. I wonder would we be better off if we just gave some crayons to a three year old and then built whatever design they produced? At least it would be colourful and it would be hard to be worse that what the “experts” produce.

Ref the Cambridge one - was there last week and went to drive round it as it’s not far from my new flat. No major issues as a car (indeed I think there were less than 5 cars on/near it so lightly trafficked) but there were as many (3-5) cyclists on the road bits as on the cycle lane - I couldnt track each one but at least 2 were using the road to turn right rather than go the long way round - as I suggested I’d lilely do. It was mid morning so perhaps not busy but it did seem very OTT for the traffic flows vs just having a wider road there.

Need to get a bike over there and try cycling as bikes were 10 a penny around the place. Went through Cambridge about 10 years ago on a cross country route, remember the cycle lanes being very prevalent but also poorly surfaced and twice almost got hit by a police car that didnt seem to be able to stay out of them!

[traffic-light-man]

Not sure whether to laugh or cry at this.

Another triumph for highway engineers. I wonder would we be better off if we just gave some crayons to a three year old and then built whatever design they produced? At least it would be colourful and it would be hard to be worse that what the “experts” produce.

Locally, we seem to get cycling infrastructure that is generally quite good (by some standards), but the connections, starts and ends are terrible. My general cynicism leads me to think that a lot of it is token infrastructure, rather than genuinely useful. My main bugbear at the moment being the rampant improvements (complete replacement like-for-like of everything, footways included) of many of the S4 routes in and out of the city, running through many neighbourhoods and yet without any cycling infrastructure installed - the exact areas that I would think could benefit from it. The council likes to be seen to be doing things to promote cycling, but simultaneously, the mayor likes to win votes by being seen to be improving things for (specifically) motor vehicle users to get everywhere unhindered - everything else is a bolt on, when it's convenient.

I know a cycling culture isn't built overnight, nor can a complete network of infrastructure be, but we're not even building it unless its a specific part of a scheme at the moment. I'd rather see the infrastructure being included in urban improvement works with the ability to eventually connect it all up together and make a network, rather than the apparent trend of ignoring it unless a scheme on a particular section of highway actually hinges on it.

[jervi]

In a TRO plan published today it seems that Chichester, W.Sussex is going to be getting a "Dutch style roundabout".
I believe this is being carried out via S278 due to vast developments happening on the Western side of Chichester (hence the other changes also mentioned in this TRO), although I could be totally wrong)

https://www.westsussex.gov.uk/media/15988/chs9038.pdf

All of the roads are subjected to a 20mph limit, except A286 Orchard Street to the North which is 30mph. Three of the roads make up part of the LCN, which then connects onto NCN2 to the West, although the only road to have dedicated cycle provision is the A286 to the south in the form of a shared foot/cycleway. Although hopefully in due course the surrounding roads will get decent cycle provision improvements, especially Westgate to the West which carries NCN2.


Also to note the A286 Chichester Ring Road did get a covid pop-up cycle lane last year which lasted about 5 months before being removed, and during that scheme they basically gave up at this roundabout. (archieved plans - sheet 4)

[Chris5156]

Interesting! From the plan it looks very good.

Three of the roads make up part of the LCN, which then connects onto NCN2 to the West, although the only road to have dedicated cycle provision is the A286 to the south in the form of a shared foot/cycleway. Although hopefully in due course the surrounding roads will get decent cycle provision improvements, especially Westgate to the West which carries NCN2.

Hopefully so - in any particular town you have to start somewhere, and building a full Dutch-style roundabout in a town where cycling provision is currently nothing special looks like a signal that further substantial improvements will follow. This is a scheme that will be a showcase for what is possible and will help build support for more changes.

[stu531]

It's only a 'could', but... https://www.harrogateadvertiser.co.uk/n ... ty-3182973

[JammyDodge]

Interesting! From the plan it looks very good.

Three of the roads make up part of the LCN, which then connects onto NCN2 to the West, although the only road to have dedicated cycle provision is the A286 to the south in the form of a shared foot/cycleway. Although hopefully in due course the surrounding roads will get decent cycle provision improvements, especially Westgate to the West which carries NCN2.

Hopefully so - in any particular town you have to start somewhere, and building a full Dutch-style roundabout in a town where cycling provision is currently nothing special looks like a signal that further substantial improvements will follow. This is a scheme that will be a showcase for what is possible and will help build support for more changes.

It seems as though someone at the council saw the one in Cambridge and went, We'll be having one of them. As you say, seems like the council has some plans coming.
I drew a quick route map of possible future cycle routes in and around Chichester, based around the planned dutch roundabout:

One of the connections that would be interesting is a route out to Goodwood

[Mapper89062]

Another Dutch-style roundabout has been built at the Rake Lane / Billy Mill Lane roundabout in North Shields. This roundabout is much larger than the other ones designed so far: https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/sites/d ... adbout.jpg

There's one proposed in Sheffield as well: https://connectingsheffield.commonplace ... date/step1, and a further one is planned on Boundary Way in Hemel Hempstead: https://storymaps.arcgis.com/collection ... 574?item=2.

The trend is catching on!

[JammyDodge]

Another Dutch-style roundabout has been built at the Rake Lane / Billy Mill Lane roundabout in North Shields. This roundabout is much larger than the other ones designed so far: https://my.northtyneside.gov.uk/sites/d ... adbout.jpg

I actually just used this on Monday
It was good, very wide for cycles, with a good amount of space for a vehicle to wait for me to cross
I also had a good experience with motorists waiting for me to pass, as of course I have the right of way on a bike

[AnOrdinarySABREUser]

Is there any possibility that a Dutch-style layout could be applied to a mini roundabout instead of a regular roundabout, i.e. a very compact version of the regular Dutch-style roundabout. Such a variation could be useful for where there is little room to make space for a regular roundabout, which is common in British residential areas. An example of such a tight space would be here, which is currently a traffic light crossroads. (in practice, this is a T-junction as East Street is pedestrianised)

[MotorwayGuy]

Meanwhile we we still have rubbish like this, which was installed in 2017 but is still a common design principle. Cyclists are expected to just "make it work" at the roundabouts, using pedestrian crossings that clog the entire roundabout.

[FosseWay]

Meanwhile we we still have rubbish like this, which was installed in 2017 but is still a common design principle. Cyclists are expected to just "make it work" at the roundabouts, using pedestrian crossings that clog the entire roundabout.

I was about to ask what exactly your point was here, because I couldn't see any provision for cyclists at all. IME no provision at all, and expecting cyclists to use the general traffic lanes, is both the default and preferable to crap cyclist-specific infrastructure, so I wasn't really grasping what was specifically "rubbish" about this.

Then I moved forward a few clicks (I turned right at the roundabout the link above is facing) and saw the blue "Cyclists rejoin main carriageway" sign. In other words, at some point, cyclists have been told to be somewhere other than the main carriageway, but I'd completely missed this the first time round. Closer inspection reveals on-road cycle lanes that, er, stop? disappear into another dimension? I dunno - at the roundabout, such as here. I now see exactly why you call this "rubbish", and I agree entirely. Where are cyclists supposed to go between that sign and the "Rejoin" sign I mentioned? Are pedestrians aware of the fact that cyclists may be using the same space? What, actually, is so horrible about the road just there - it looks to be traffic-calmed and probably has a 20 limit (if not, that's easily fixed)?

I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's really not surprising that cyclists cycle on the pavement when the law says they shouldn't, when a breath later the law says they can, with the only difference being a sign saying so (and a TRO, presumably). There is nothing that makes cycling on the pavement inherently safer just there than elsewhere where it isn't permitted. Put another way, sticking up a sign doesn't magically make the conflicts that are the reason for forbidding pavement cycling suddenly go away.

It's not just the UK that does this, either. Here's my local example, a few hundred metres from my house. In what universe is it desirable for cyclists to share the same 60 cm wide pavement as pedestrians, especially when the road alongside has a 30 km/h limit and (particularly vicious) speed humps, and is perfectly safe to cycle on?

[Debaser]

Is there any possibility that a Dutch-style layout could be applied to a mini roundabout instead of a regular roundabout, i.e. a very compact version of the regular Dutch-style roundabout. Such a variation could be useful for where there is little room to make space for a regular roundabout, which is common in British residential areas. An example of such a tight space would be here, which is currently a traffic light crossroads. (in practice, this is a T-junction as East Street is pedestrianised)

Dutch roundabouts are very similar in character to UK compact roundabouts. They still cater for all movements, including U-turns, and as such require a minimum ICD of 28m.

[Bryn666]

Is there any possibility that a Dutch-style layout could be applied to a mini roundabout instead of a regular roundabout, i.e. a very compact version of the regular Dutch-style roundabout. Such a variation could be useful for where there is little room to make space for a regular roundabout, which is common in British residential areas. An example of such a tight space would be here, which is currently a traffic light crossroads. (in practice, this is a T-junction as East Street is pedestrianised)

Dutch roundabouts are very similar in character to UK compact roundabouts. They still cater for all movements, including U-turns, and as such require a minimum ICD of 28m.

Indeed, a mini-roundabout doesn't lend itself to the circulatory cycle track as it would be too small meaning it'd be blocked by traffic entering and exiting the mini. These locations are better suited as a cycle friendly signal junction or... having motorised traffic reduction measures. Cue howls of anguish from the Forever Victimised Motorists Rights Lobby.

[B1040]

Accidents have risen at the Cambridge Dutch roundabout.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 310167.amp

[Debaser]

There's one proposed in Sheffield as well: https://connectingsheffield.commonplace ... date/step1.

I note they are trying to use a Dutch 'priority square' layout for one junction, but once again in that typical, half-arsed UK, kind of way. I hope someone who has actually seen a voorrangsplein, and understands why it is safe, gets to design it, rather than 'cargo cult-ing' it and simply badly imitating a Dutch layout.

[Bryn666]

Accidents have risen at the Cambridge Dutch roundabout.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co ... 310167.amp

Misleading somewhat as the number of cyclists using the junction has also skyrocketed meaning that naturally raw collision numbers will go up - the real metric is how many of those are a %age of traffic types, who is affected, is driver error or arrogance to blame, etc.

[Bryn666]

There's one proposed in Sheffield as well: https://connectingsheffield.commonplace ... date/step1.

I note they are trying to use a Dutch 'priority square' layout for one junction, but once again in that typical, half-arsed UK, kind of way. I hope someone who has actually seen a voorrangsplein, and understands why it is safe, gets to design it, rather than 'cargo cult-ing' it and simply imitating a Dutch layout.

£10 says it'll get ruined because it'll end up being designed by a DMRB worshipper, and then safety audited by people stuck in the 90s that insist a HGV can do a donut around it, that the intervisibility applicable is more suited to the M1/M6 merge, and that it has all sorts of garish yellow backed signs and red textured surfacing all over it so drivers "don't get confused" by something as basic as a give way line.

[Debaser]

There's one proposed in Sheffield as well: https://connectingsheffield.commonplace ... date/step1.

I note they are trying to use a Dutch 'priority square' layout for one junction, but once again in that typical, half-arsed UK, kind of way. I hope someone who has actually seen a voorrangsplein, and understands why it is safe, gets to design it, rather than 'cargo cult-ing' it and simply imitating a Dutch layout.

£10 says it'll get ruined because it'll end up being designed by a DMRB worshipper, and then safety audited by people stuck in the 90s that insist a HGV can do a donut around it, that the intervisibility applicable is more suited to the M1/M6 merge, and that it has all sorts of garish yellow backed signs and red textured surfacing all over it so drivers "don't get confused" by something as basic as a give way line.

Even worse, the kerbed islands are supposed to keep the through lanes to single lanes...and we all know what will happen when a car breaks down there!

For the uninitiated, a voorrangsplein, or 'squashed roundabout' as the Sheffielders have apparently decided to call them.

[Mapper89062]

Is there any possibility that a Dutch-style layout could be applied to a mini roundabout instead of a regular roundabout, i.e. a very compact version of the regular Dutch-style roundabout. Such a variation could be useful for where there is little room to make space for a regular roundabout, which is common in British residential areas. An example of such a tight space would be here, which is currently a traffic light crossroads. (in practice, this is a T-junction as East Street is pedestrianised)

For this particular location, a possible solution could be to introduce a bus gate on the eastern arm. This would reduce traffic volumes on the B2040 so cycling on-road would probably be safe enough, and cyclists would have a phase on the junction shared only with buses and the occasional vehicle accessing a property on East Street. You can then remove the right turn lane on the south approach and the hatching on the northern one to have north-south cycle lanes through the junction along with advanced stop lines for easier right turns (many cyclists would probably turn right via St Mary's Road or Court Street anyway).

Not a perfect solution, but it should do the job fine for this kind of junction... until someone complains that driving into the town now requires going a km out of your way down the A2.