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Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 13:00What does asking people in wheelchairs to wheel themselves above the height of traffic just to get across the road demonstrate? A complete lack of awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
Personally, I am not convinced that people with your attitude should be allowed to design roads in the first place.
How would you like a more responsible designer to account for this?
there is a general trend against grade separation in towns and cities as it creates a hostile environment for non motorised road users - higher traffic speeds and inconvenient diversions through tunnels and bridges for people wishing to simply cross a road
The responsible designer asks themselves the following question:Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 14:51 How would you like a more responsible designer to account for this?
No, I'm saying there is nothing new about a roundabout, a zebra crossing and a give way line. I've seen them all before.
When you combine several existing features in a design that almost all drivers will be unfamiliar with, you create the possibility of confusion, even if each individual feature is familiar. Recognising and allowing for this is the hallmark of responsible design.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 15:44No, I'm saying there is nothing new about a roundabout, a zebra crossing and a give way line. I've seen them all before.
If you were talking about a radical new concept then I agree it needs to be obvious how to use it. The 'confusion' which sparked this debate was that people might not know how to drive over a zebra crossing in which case such people absolutely should not be driving as our roads are already filled with them.
It's generally referred to locally as "the Queen Edith's Way roundabout". (The eastern section of the ring road from Hills Road to Newmarket Road has five names, and I don't think anyone can reliably remember which bit is which.)
I think there is a potential risk here, as a roundabout a mile away on the ring road (A1134 Perne Road/Birdwood Road) was also redone a couple of years ago. A Dutch-style roundabout was sort-of-promised, but what we ended up with was one superficially similar, but with motor traffic retaining priority. So once the new roundabout is in, we will have two similar roundabouts with different priorities. So I hope the signage is clear. At least the new one is conveniently close to the hospital in case of collisions.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 15:44 If you were talking about a radical new concept then I agree it needs to be obvious how to use it. The 'confusion' which sparked this debate was that people might not know how to drive over a zebra crossing in which case such people absolutely should not be driving as our roads are already filled with them.
perhaps lowering the road junction by 2-3 metres, meaning the NMU routes above wouldnt need a large incline.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 13:00What problem are we trying to solve? That motorists lack an awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
What does asking people in wheelchairs to wheel themselves above the height of traffic just to get across the road demonstrate? A complete lack of awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
I quite agree!Graham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 14:45Personally, I am not convinced that people with your attitude should be allowed to design roads in the first place.
People make mistakes, and they are more likely to make mistakes when they are faced with a road layout they have not experienced before, The responsible designer recognises this, and takes this into account in their design.
The other way to do it is to make the NMUs use a signalised crossing to cross the space for motorised users, but that can also cause issues so close to a roundabout, as traffic builds up on the roundabout when trying to use an exit where there is a crossing in use so close.boliston wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 15:25there is a general trend against grade separation in towns and cities as it creates a hostile environment for non motorised road users - higher traffic speeds and inconvenient diversions through tunnels and bridges for people wishing to simply cross a road
No you misunderstood, it wasnt that people wouldnt know that they shouldnt stop over the zebra crossing, its that people might just ignore the fact it is because they are looking for the best view of the roundabout, which is right next to the roundabout which ironically is where the zebra crossing is!Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 15:44No, I'm saying there is nothing new about a roundabout, a zebra crossing and a give way line. I've seen them all before.
If you were talking about a radical new concept then I agree it needs to be obvious how to use it. The 'confusion' which sparked this debate was that people might not know how to drive over a zebra crossing in which case such people absolutely should not be driving as our roads are already filled with them.
That would make property access rather difficult and again, we're talking about a suburban street in Cambridge, not something like the north circular road...lotrjw wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 17:41perhaps lowering the road junction by 2-3 metres, meaning the NMU routes above wouldnt need a large incline.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 13:00What problem are we trying to solve? That motorists lack an awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
What does asking people in wheelchairs to wheel themselves above the height of traffic just to get across the road demonstrate? A complete lack of awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
On top of that Im sure many experienced drivers get confused at complex junctions they arent used to, even if all features are well know and recognised ones. Even simple junctions that drivers are unfamiliar with can be a little confusing sometimes, it depends how the layout is.Graham wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 16:20When you combine several existing features in a design that almost all drivers will be unfamiliar with, you create the possibility of confusion, even if each individual feature is familiar. Recognising and allowing for this is the hallmark of responsible design.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 15:44No, I'm saying there is nothing new about a roundabout, a zebra crossing and a give way line. I've seen them all before.
If you were talking about a radical new concept then I agree it needs to be obvious how to use it. The 'confusion' which sparked this debate was that people might not know how to drive over a zebra crossing in which case such people absolutely should not be driving as our roads are already filled with them.
It's rather like changing the priorities of traffic signals. By your argument, this should not have any impact on the number of accidents, as all drivers should understand how traffic signals work. However, in the real world, it is recognised that drivers are more likely to make mistakes in these circumstances, and the responsible approach is to put up a sign informing drivers that the signal priorities have been changed.
I think lotrjw just takes umbrage with the notion that his car isn't king of the road.c2R wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 17:51That would make property access rather difficult and again, we're talking about a suburban street in Cambridge, not something like the north circular road...lotrjw wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 17:41perhaps lowering the road junction by 2-3 metres, meaning the NMU routes above wouldnt need a large incline.Johnathan404 wrote: ↑Sat Jun 16, 2018 13:00 What problem are we trying to solve? That motorists lack an awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
What does asking people in wheelchairs to wheel themselves above the height of traffic just to get across the road demonstrate? A complete lack of awareness that other people exist and have a right to get across the road.
Can I ask why one exit has "give way" markings before the crossing point and the others don't? I can't see from the plan what makes that one different.
I’m sorry, I’ve lost the relevance of this point to the overall design. How will it improve the functioning of the roundabout??
