South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

The study of British and Irish roads - their construction, numbering, history, mapping, past and future official roads proposals and general roads musings.

There is a separate forum for Street Furniture (traffic lights, street lights, road signs etc).

Registered users get access to other forums including discussions about other forms of transport, driving, fantasy roads and wishlists, and roads quizzes.

Moderator: Site Management Team

Klepsydra
Member
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:39
Location: Market Drayton
Contact:

South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Klepsydra »

For reasons I won't bore you with I'm interested to know what the optimal route would have been, in January 1965, from south London (Balham) to somewhere in Yorkshire north of Leeds. Obviously the first part of the M1 was already open, but apart from that?

Thanks in advance for suggestions/opinions.
"I went to a planet without bilateral symmetry and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
User avatar
OLD GIT
Member
Posts: 2401
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2012 21:41

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by OLD GIT »

I did a trip from up north ,passing through Scotch corner to Chelsea circa 1968. Down to the M18 was A1 , (can't remember much of that bit) ,and the M1 stopped around London Gateway Services , then known as Scratchwood Services.
Klepsydra
Member
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:39
Location: Market Drayton
Contact:

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Klepsydra »

There was a lot more of the M1 by 1968 than there was in 1965...
"I went to a planet without bilateral symmetry and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Steven »

Well, there are the 1965 Route Planning Maps on SABRE Maps that might just help with the question.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

WHBM
Member
Posts: 9706
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by WHBM »

I think the M1 got you to Kilsby, or maybe to the east side of Leicester, by 1965, pointing more north-west than north from London. However most of the A1 dualling, apart from short sections like Hatfield, would have been complete, so that would be a more likely route throughout.
User avatar
Steven
SABRE Maps Coordinator
Posts: 19168
Joined: Tue Feb 12, 2002 20:39
Location: Wolverhampton, Staffordshire
Contact:

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Steven »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 21:08 I think the M1 got you to Kilsby, or maybe to the east side of Leicester, by 1965, pointing more north-west than north from London.

*Checks SABRE Maps as suggested*


Lutterworth. Or Coalville. Depending on when in 1965 you're on about.
Steven
Motorway Historian

Founder Member, SABRE ex-Presidents' Corner

Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!

Robert Kilcoyne
Member
Posts: 966
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:41
Location: Birmingham

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

The southern terminus of the M1 was at Berrygrove (Junction 5) in 1965, so you would have had to use the A41 until the outskirts of Watford before you could join the motorway. At that stage the M1 would really have only been suitable for journeys to the Midlands and the main population centres of North West England.
User avatar
roadtester
Member
Posts: 31475
Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2007 18:05
Location: Cambridgeshire

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by roadtester »

At least at the southern end you would have been able to drive straight through central London with far fewer restrictions and without paying the Congestion Charge.
Electrophorus Electricus

Check out #davidsdailycar on Mastodon
Klepsydra
Member
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:39
Location: Market Drayton
Contact:

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Klepsydra »

As I said in the original post, we're talking January 1965.

What the maps don't tell you is how fast (or slow) one route is over another.

I guess that the A1 all the way would have been quicker than the M1 and then trying to find a way north from Rugby?
"I went to a planet without bilateral symmetry and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
Simon_GNR
Member
Posts: 925
Joined: Sat Apr 10, 2004 19:20
Location: North Nottinghamshire

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Simon_GNR »

Going all the way up the A1 from London would probably have been the best bet but at that time I think there was still the bottleneck at Ferrybridge with the old bridge (S2) to contend with. The Newark bypass was, I believe, open by January 1965, but it might have been later that year when it opened.
Robert Kilcoyne
Member
Posts: 966
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:41
Location: Birmingham

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

Simon_GNR wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 22:15 Going all the way up the A1 from London would probably have been the best bet but at that time I think there was still the bottleneck at Ferrybridge with the old bridge (S2) to contend with. The Newark bypass was, I believe, open by January 1965, but it might have been later that year when it opened.
As I see it, you would have had to drive through Hatfield, and maybe Newark, but Stevenage, Stamford, Grantham and Doncaster had all been bypassed by now. I believe that the S2 through Ferrybridge was the last section of A1 in Yorkshire to be replaced by dual carriageway in 1967.

The A1 would also have been the preferred route at that time for drivers travelling from London to Carlisle and Scotland, with traffic for Glasgow and West Scotland leaving the A1 at Scotch Corner.
User avatar
wrinkly
Member
Posts: 8986
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:17
Location: Leeds

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by wrinkly »

Klepsydra wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 21:50 I guess that the A1 all the way would have been quicker than the M1 and then trying to find a way north from Rugby?
Yes though as Steven mentioned above the M1 already reached a bit beyond Rugby.
User avatar
Mattemotorway
Member
Posts: 1919
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 18:55
Location: Insert City Name Here

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Mattemotorway »

Looking at SABRE maps, with the January 1965 date in mind, the M1 appears to only go as far as Lutterworth (J20) at that point...

As for the A1, it looks like the Hatfield bypass was already open, however as well as Ferrybridge not being dual yet, neither is parts of the A1 around Letchworth, St Neots (this is bypasses but only single!), Stretton, Long Bennington, Tuxford, Ranby or Bramham. The Network changes list on the Wiki suggests that the Aberford to Wetherby (Bramham) section was dualled later on in 1965, with the Carlton-Markham Moor (Tuxford) and Ferrybridge-Brotherton sections dualled in 1967, plus Long Bennington in 1968. Great Casterton-South Witham (Stretton) wasn't dualled until 1971!
My old posts are just downright embarrassing.

Expects to climb the job ladder quickly and is often glued to my phone... Apparently..
User avatar
Chris Bertram
Member
Posts: 15744
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:30
Location: Birmingham, England

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Chris Bertram »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 21:08 I think the M1 got you to Kilsby, or maybe to the east side of Leicester, by 1965, pointing more north-west than north from London. However most of the A1 dualling, apart from short sections like Hatfield, would have been complete, so that would be a more likely route throughout.
I don't think M1 has ever gone to the east of Leicester. However, if you took M1 to Lutterworth, as it is suggested is as far as it went in Jan 1965, you could then take A426 to Leicester, then A46 to Newark to pick up the A1 to continue north.
“The quality of any advice anybody has to offer has to be judged against the quality of life they actually lead.” - Douglas Adams.

Did you know there's more to SABRE than just the Forums?
Add your roads knowledge to the SABRE Wiki today!
Have you browsed SABRE Maps recently? Try getting involved!
Klepsydra
Member
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Aug 17, 2005 12:39
Location: Market Drayton
Contact:

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Klepsydra »

CBRD (usually reliable) dates the opening of M1 j18-24 to November 1965. All academic, though, as it seems clear that the A1 would have been the preferred route back then.
"I went to a planet without bilateral symmetry and all I got was this lousy F-shirt."
User avatar
KeithW
Member
Posts: 19205
Joined: Thu Dec 04, 2014 13:25
Location: Marton-In-Cleveland North Yorks

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by KeithW »

Mattemotorway wrote: Tue Jul 03, 2018 14:10 Looking at SABRE maps, with the January 1965 date in mind, the M1 appears to only go as far as Lutterworth (J20) at that point...

As for the A1, it looks like the Hatfield bypass was already open, however as well as Ferrybridge not being dual yet, neither is parts of the A1 around Letchworth, St Neots (this is bypasses but only single!), Stretton, Long Bennington, Tuxford, Ranby or Bramham. The Network changes list on the Wiki suggests that the Aberford to Wetherby (Bramham) section was dualled later on in 1965, with the Carlton-Markham Moor (Tuxford) and Ferrybridge-Brotherton sections dualled in 1967, plus Long Bennington in 1968. Great Casterton-South Witham (Stretton) wasn't dualled until 1971!
The Baldock Bypass didn't open until 1967
The old Hatfield bypass alongside the De Havilland factory (the A1001 now) was open but remained a major bottleneck until the tunnel opened. There were a number of sections of substandard road between Baldock and St Neots in the early 1980's which were gradually improved. At Tempsford the turn off for Everton was a very hairy tee junction with no slip directly off the A1 on what is now a LAR road until the mid 90's.

From Lutterworth you could have driven up the A426 to Leicester and then taken the Fosse Way to the A1 at Newark. The Fosse Way was a favourite with caravanners from the NE to Devon and Cornwall. as late as the mid 1970's. In 1976 we were looked at askance at a Caravan club meeting in Wadebridge because we had used the M1/A38/M5 route.
WHBM
Member
Posts: 9706
Joined: Thu Nov 30, 2006 18:01
Location: London

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by WHBM »

WHBM wrote: Mon Jul 02, 2018 21:08I think the M1 got you to Kilsby, or maybe to the east side of Leicester, by 1965,
The M1 quite obviously goes to the west side of Leicester, not to the east. Who writes this rubbish ? :)
Glenn A
Member
Posts: 9776
Joined: Fri Apr 15, 2005 19:31
Location: Cumbria

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Glenn A »

Suppose you were going to somewhere like Bedale, most of the A1 was D2 or D2M by 1965, with only some short sections of S1 in Herts and Cambs, so this would have been more practical, as the M1 was incomplete. Even by 1968, when the M1 was extended to Leeds, you'd still have to either cross Leeds, or use the A642 to reach the A1, which is quite a slow road.
User avatar
SouthWest Philip
Member
Posts: 3478
Joined: Sun Mar 31, 2002 19:35
Location: Evesham, Worcestershire

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by SouthWest Philip »

Glenn A wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 17:38 Even by 1968, when the M1 was extended to Leeds, you'd still have to either cross Leeds, or use the A642 to reach the A1, which is quite a slow road.
Wasn't the M18 open as far as the A1(M) by then?
Robert Kilcoyne
Member
Posts: 966
Joined: Sun May 28, 2017 11:41
Location: Birmingham

Re: South London to North Yorkshire, 1965

Post by Robert Kilcoyne »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 18:20
Glenn A wrote: Tue Jul 10, 2018 17:38 Even by 1968, when the M1 was extended to Leeds, you'd still have to either cross Leeds, or use the A642 to reach the A1, which is quite a slow road.
Wasn't the M18 open as far as the A1(M) by then?
The Chronology Map in the Motorway Database on CBRD indicates that the M1 between Pinxton and Thurcroft and the M18 between Thurcroft and Wadworth were both opened in November 1967, so that you could use motorway between Mill Hill and Redhouse.
Post Reply