Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

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M4Simon
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by M4Simon »

There is a reasonable argument that the M25 had a temporary at grade terminus at Hunton Bridge. Opened as the A405 and part of the North Orbital Road, junctions 17 to Hunton Bridge became part of the M25 when the section to the south opened (I think around 1985). By this time, the final section (junction 19 to 23) must have been under construction, with the grade separated junction 19 built as part of this contract. Google Maps shows some redundant carriageway from that time very clearly: https://goo.gl/maps/DZAw1Xv2SCexxU5k6 Nevertheless, the Hunton Bridge roundabout was the terminus of the M25 for a year or two in the mid 80s.

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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Steven »

M4Simon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 05:53 There is a reasonable argument that the M25 had a temporary at grade terminus at Hunton Bridge. Opened as the A405 and part of the North Orbital Road, junctions 17 to Hunton Bridge became part of the M25 when the section to the south opened (I think around 1985). By this time, the final section (junction 19 to 23) must have been under construction, with the grade separated junction 19 built as part of this contract. Google Maps shows some redundant carriageway from that time very clearly: https://goo.gl/maps/DZAw1Xv2SCexxU5k6 Nevertheless, the Hunton Bridge roundabout was the terminus of the M25 for a year or two in the mid 80s.
Whilst that's true, it's also worth bearing in mind that this again is a little bit different, as it was the intended terminus of M25 prior to the "bodge" that saw M16 and M25 combined into a single M25 London Orbital rather than RIngways 3 and 4.

It became a temporary terminus later on, hence the redundant roadspace you mention and the fact that the Hunton Bridge Spur opens out to D3M (though one lane is hatched out nowadays) once it is back on its original line.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

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Steven wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 07:34
M4Simon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 05:53 There is a reasonable argument that the M25 had a temporary at grade terminus at Hunton Bridge. Opened as the A405 and part of the North Orbital Road, junctions 17 to Hunton Bridge became part of the M25 when the section to the south opened (I think around 1985). By this time, the final section (junction 19 to 23) must have been under construction, with the grade separated junction 19 built as part of this contract. Google Maps shows some redundant carriageway from that time very clearly: https://goo.gl/maps/DZAw1Xv2SCexxU5k6 Nevertheless, the Hunton Bridge roundabout was the terminus of the M25 for a year or two in the mid 80s.
Whilst that's true, it's also worth bearing in mind that this again is a little bit different, as it was the intended terminus of M25 prior to the "bodge" that saw M16 and M25 combined into a single M25 London Orbital rather than RIngways 3 and 4.

It became a temporary terminus later on, hence the redundant roadspace you mention and the fact that the Hunton Bridge Spur opens out to D3M (though one lane is hatched out nowadays) once it is back on its original line.
Yes indeed, this is partly why I said that there is a reasonable argument for it being a temporary terminus even though it was intended to be rather more permanent than that.

I know some of the history of the hatching out. When I first visited it, it was three lanes up to the realigned section where the redundant carriageway is located. Howver, as part of the bridge assessment programme in the early 90s, the Langleybury Lane bridge was found to be weak and was propped in the central reserve area until a permanent strengthening scheme could be delivered. At this stage, lane 3 was closed in either direction around the prop, but the remaining part of the third lane was open in each direction to the roundabout.

Later in the 1990s, the remaining part of lane 3 on the westbound carriageway was reduced to two lanes. I don't know when the eastbound was amended, but it would be several years later if I recall correctly.

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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

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M4Simon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 09:44
Steven wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 07:34
M4Simon wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 05:53 There is a reasonable argument that the M25 had a temporary at grade terminus at Hunton Bridge. Opened as the A405 and part of the North Orbital Road, junctions 17 to Hunton Bridge became part of the M25 when the section to the south opened (I think around 1985). By this time, the final section (junction 19 to 23) must have been under construction, with the grade separated junction 19 built as part of this contract. Google Maps shows some redundant carriageway from that time very clearly: https://goo.gl/maps/DZAw1Xv2SCexxU5k6 Nevertheless, the Hunton Bridge roundabout was the terminus of the M25 for a year or two in the mid 80s.
Whilst that's true, it's also worth bearing in mind that this again is a little bit different, as it was the intended terminus of M25 prior to the "bodge" that saw M16 and M25 combined into a single M25 London Orbital rather than RIngways 3 and 4.

It became a temporary terminus later on, hence the redundant roadspace you mention and the fact that the Hunton Bridge Spur opens out to D3M (though one lane is hatched out nowadays) once it is back on its original line.
Yes indeed, this is partly why I said that there is a reasonable argument for it being a temporary terminus even though it was intended to be rather more permanent than that.

I know some of the history of the hatching out. When I first visited it, it was three lanes up to the realigned section where the redundant carriageway is located. Howver, as part of the bridge assessment programme in the early 90s, the Langleybury Lane bridge was found to be weak and was propped in the central reserve area until a permanent strengthening scheme could be delivered. At this stage, lane 3 was closed in either direction around the prop, but the remaining part of the third lane was open in each direction to the roundabout.

Later in the 1990s, the remaining part of lane 3 on the westbound carriageway was reduced to two lanes. I don't know when the eastbound was amended, but it would be several years later if I recall correctly.

Simon
Google Earth suggests sometime between 2005-2008 for the eastbound. I seem to recall some gnashing of teeth on here about it.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Conekicker »

I've a vague recollection that the M18 southbound, before it linked through to the A1(M) had an at-grade end that ran off onto the A18. You can see the end of the old alignment on the motorway here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58363 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58339 ... !1e3?hl=en

I think the northbound entry was here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58403 ... 6656?hl=en

Which is adjacent an otherwise odd wide hard shoulder:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58436 ... !1e3?hl=en
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by JohnnyMo »

I would assume most of them were, the question is what counts as the temporary termini.

Taking the Lancaster Bypass ( M6) here and here where the original bypass joins the A6, although neither are now on the M6 mainline.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by KeithW »

Conekicker wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:11 I've a vague recollection that the M18 southbound, before it linked through to the A1(M) had an at-grade end that ran off onto the A18. You can see the end of the old alignment on the motorway here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58363 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58339 ... !1e3?hl=en

I think the northbound entry was here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58403 ... 6656?hl=en

Which is adjacent an otherwise odd wide hard shoulder:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58436 ... !1e3?hl=en

There was certainly a long period when the M18 from the M1 to the A1(M) terminated on the A1(M). There was clearly space for the flyover and in about 1978 when I drove it construction was in progress. That was about the only section of the M18 I used back then as I was driving fairly regularly from the North East to London or Kent

Looking at Roads.org the timeline shows that opening dates after J0 to J2 were as follows

Jun 1972 J5*-6 Hatfield → Thorne
Jun 1975 J6-7 Thorne → East Cowick
Jul 1977 J4-5* Armthorpe → Hatfield
Feb 1979 J2-4 Wadworth → Armthorpe
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

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KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:46
Conekicker wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:11 I've a vague recollection that the M18 southbound, before it linked through to the A1(M) had an at-grade end that ran off onto the A18. You can see the end of the old alignment on the motorway here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58363 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58339 ... !1e3?hl=en

I think the northbound entry was here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58403 ... 6656?hl=en

Which is adjacent an otherwise odd wide hard shoulder:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58436 ... !1e3?hl=en

There was certainly a long period when the M18 from the M1 to the A1(M) terminated on the A1(M). There was clearly space for the flyover and in about 1978 when I drove it construction was in progress. That was about the only section of the M18 I used back then as I was driving fairly regularly from the North East to London or Kent
<insert sheesh joke here>

It's caught on SABRE Maps as under construction, but doesn't clearly show the layout there.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Conekicker »

Steven wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 12:43
KeithW wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 11:46
Conekicker wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 10:11 I've a vague recollection that the M18 southbound, before it linked through to the A1(M) had an at-grade end that ran off onto the A18. You can see the end of the old alignment on the motorway here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58363 ... 8192?hl=en

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58339 ... !1e3?hl=en

I think the northbound entry was here:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58403 ... 6656?hl=en

Which is adjacent an otherwise odd wide hard shoulder:

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.58436 ... !1e3?hl=en

There was certainly a long period when the M18 from the M1 to the A1(M) terminated on the A1(M). There was clearly space for the flyover and in about 1978 when I drove it construction was in progress. That was about the only section of the M18 I used back then as I was driving fairly regularly from the North East to London or Kent
<insert sheesh joke here>

It's caught on SABRE Maps as under construction, but doesn't clearly show the layout there.
I guess in those days it would have effectively been the Thorne bypass, Thorne having a couple of horrible right-angled bends within the town.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by wrinkly »

That section of the M18 was originally known as the Thorne and Hatfield bypass and opened in 1972 IIRC. It was built as D3M through the junction with the A18(M) (later M180) because at the time it was expected that the SWward extension would be D3M.

I think I used to have an early 1:50k map showing the temporary terminus but it was one of a bunch of maps that got stolen from my car when I unintentionally left it with the window partly open.

There are some interesting views on old-maps.co.uk:

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/467289 ... /10/101320

https://www.old-maps.co.uk/#/Map/467270 ... /12/100955

Not sure the links will work. You may have to click on the minus sign a few times to reduce the scale.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Steven »

wrinkly wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 14:23 That section of the M18 was originally known as the Thorne and Hatfield bypass and opened in 1972 IIRC. It was built as D3M through the junction with the A18(M) (later M180) because at the time it was expected that the SWward extension would be D3M.

I think I used to have an early 1:50k map showing the temporary terminus but it was one of a bunch of maps that got stolen from my car when I unintentionally left it with the window partly open.
The map referred to is linked to two (well, now three...) posts above.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Ross Spur »

The Gazette notice for the opening of the Thorne Bypass on 21 June 1972 mentions the roundabouts at Waterside (current J6 north of Thorne) and North Ings on the Tudworth Hall Link but nothing about the southern link to A1146 at Hatfield.
https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/iss ... /page/6996

The Shell Motorways book of 1974 shows no roundabout at Hatfield either.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

Steven wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 21:24
M4Simon wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 18:39
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 13:26 Don't forget for many years (around 10 years, until the A406 was completed), the M11 terminated at grade at the Redbridge Roundabout.

Hi Sunil, good to see you posting again. Am I right in thinking it was signed as junction 3?
It was certainly mapped as junction 3, but newer members may not be aware that it was M15 junction 3, not M11.

I'm not sure I'd consider it particularly at-grade though, as the space for the through carriageways was there - much like large numbers of motorway temporary terminii up and down the country.
Well it was at grade - I dunno, call it "de facto" at-grade! The M15 centre-line wasn't constructed until 1989 as the A406, only the slip roads were built initially.
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by Sunil_of_Yoxley »

M4Simon wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 18:39
Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Sun Apr 25, 2021 13:26 Don't forget for many years (around 10 years, until the A406 was completed), the M11 terminated at grade at the Redbridge Roundabout.

Hi Sunil, good to see you posting again. Am I right in thinking it was signed as junction 3?

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Thanks, Simon, good to be back! Yes, it was signed as J3 - I seeing it remember in various local and national maps from the 1980s. Though I tried finding some in SABREMaps but couldn't see any from that era (unless I missed them!)
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by wrinkly »

Ross Spur wrote: Mon Apr 26, 2021 17:47 The Shell Motorways book of 1974 shows no roundabout at Hatfield either.
I don't think anyone has suggested there was ever a roundabout at Hatfield? (Hatfield, Yorks, that is.)
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Re: Which temporary termini were originally at-grade?

Post by M4Simon »

Sunil_of_Yoxley wrote: Tue Apr 27, 2021 00:40 Thanks, Simon, good to be back! Yes, it was signed as J3 - I seeing it remember in various local and national maps from the 1980s. Though I tried finding some in SABREMaps but couldn't see any from that era (unless I missed them!)
SABRE Maps has, with a few current day exceptions, out of copyright maps, which generally means a publication date of more than 50 years ago, hence it'll be another 15 years before we can show anything from the mid 80s.

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