All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

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WHBM
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by WHBM »

The thing I have got against ALR is the absence of hard shoulders/ERAs where it would have been perfectly practical and straightforward to install them, on level ground, and where the extensive civils that were surprisingly needed for running on an existing hard shoulder would have been, seemingly, readily extended to provide this. If the attitude had been to provide as much shoulder as possible rather than absolutely nothing I feel this would have been a better solution.

The delays that are daily reported on the radio about the M25 ALR sections due to "a broken down vehicle" makes me wonder whether the figures used in the assessment for overall benefit have been revisited after implementation to see if they were actually correct.

It's also apparent that the "active" bit just doesn't work well. Two days ago, westbound on the M3, we passed substantial debris that had fallen from a rubbish collection vehicle across lanes 1 and 2. Withing a few minutes there was signage for "Report of debris", which seems to show it had been reported by phone rather than spotted by camera. This continued for several miles, actually through the next junction, where an ALR Lane 1 closure started to be implemented, plus continuing "report of debris", by now maybe 8 miles ahead. This caused some congestion as vehicles moved over, quite unnecessarily, until ahead normal running resumed. It really is poor how the oversight of running and incidents is managed, after millions being spent on continuous CCTV etc.
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Justin Smith
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Justin Smith »

WHBM wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 12:50 The thing I have got against ALR is the absence of hard shoulders/ERAs where it would have been perfectly practical and straightforward to install them, on level ground, and where the extensive civils that were surprisingly needed for running on an existing hard shoulder would have been, seemingly, readily extended to provide this. If the attitude had been to provide as much shoulder as possible rather than absolutely nothing I feel this would have been a better solution.
I agree with this. In fact they could go one stage further. I remember seeing a car stranded by the side of the ALR M1 (no lane closure when we drove past....) and he could not get it up the kerb to minimise how much of his car was sticking out into the running lane. If they'd put a flat kerb and possibly put the barrier literally one or two feet further out he could have got almost all of his car off the running lane which must reduce your chances of getting hit by a huge amount.
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Chris5156
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Chris5156 »

Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
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Justin Smith
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Justin Smith »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:51
Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
I have to say I am surprised they can do 56mph without being done, I'm not at all sure I think that is acceptable, esp for a truck which can do a hell of a lot of damage in an accident, far more than even a car. I thought most car speedos would be indicating about 60 when doing a genuine 56 ?
fras
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by fras »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:51
Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
And any foreign truck is immune from prosecution anyway, as it is untraceable.
JRN
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by JRN »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 23:16
JRN wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 16:48
Bryn666 wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 12:27

DHSR doesn't have the hatched/chevron area change position though - they knew immediately that it wasn't workable so that is why through junction running was trialled on the M42 after a few months; before this the M42 was just gaining a weaving lane. This set up could still be marked simply with red X, green arrows, and white move over arrows when the merge lane ends. You'd only need a hazard warning line (1004.1) in lieu of the hard shoulder line. The MS4s on DHSRs already show this in a roundabout fashion.

DHSR has diluted the meaning of solid white lines. This is where the danger has come from.
I believe they actually tried more than 1 way of implementing through junction running on DHSR smart motorways.
For instance the M1 (J10-13) scheme features through junction running at every intermediate junction, and uses ALR style markings:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.88884 ... 6656?hl=en
The motorway "opens" to ALR before the junction, then in effect "closes" back to DHSR after it.

Whereas the M6 junction 5 westbound has a layout where the diverge at the hard shoulder / left running lane is marked with a solid white line but no chevrons (on the leading part of it), so that it can be either driven over or not, depending on how the signs are set:
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.50923 ... 6656?hl=en
I think this layout is especially hard for drivers to comprehend.
That M6 J5 example is abysmal - they presumably would argue they can't do through junction running because of the lack of entry slips beyond but that's easily solved by just having the space beyond as a merge area back in. Scottish lane drops used to be designed like this.
I guess that was the reason. I've not seen that junction layout used on any double-sided junction, and it is, as far as I know, unique.
The whole M6 Jct 4-5 section is very strange with the junction layouts.
I wonder why the Scottish did that previously for normal lane drops? It wouldn't seem to have any benefit over a conventional lane drop for a normal motorway.
But nonetheless, would have been a better solution here than what they actually did.
JRN
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by JRN »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:51
Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
That's taking a bit of a risk, if the enforcement threshold is 57. I know speedometers aren't supposed to ever under-read, but still.
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Chris5156
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Chris5156 »

JRN wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 23:15That's taking a bit of a risk, if the enforcement threshold is 57. I know speedometers aren't supposed to ever under-read, but still.
Speed cameras in a 50 limit won’t usually trigger at 57, the threshold is often higher.
Bendo
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bendo »

Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:51
Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
In my experience very few of them drive anywhere near 56. In a specs enforced 50, i stick cruise on GPS 55 and very rarely do I encounter wagons traveling at the same speed as me. Although to be fair they are often stuck behind Daisy doing an indicated 50 in L2 for no reason.

TLDR, in my experience most Wagons tend to do about 52.
Bendo
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bendo »

As to ARL, I quite like it myself, congestion is much reduced, would be much better though if we could get all the idiots out of L3.

Once SVD is sorted, the bulk of the issues should hopefully go away.
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rhyds
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

JRN wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 23:15
Chris5156 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 18:51
Justin Smith wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 10:42The only slight problem is a 50 limit would not slow the trucks down much, have people ever noticed that when 50 av speed cameras are in use the trucks are going faster then most cars, I have always assumed it's because their speedos are more accurate ?
It's because heavy goods vehicles are mechanically limited to 56mph, and camera enforcement for a 50 limit will not trigger at 56, so lorry drivers drive on the limiter rather than reduce their speed.
That's taking a bit of a risk, if the enforcement threshold is 57. I know speedometers aren't supposed to ever under-read, but still.
Truck tachographs (and by extension speedometers) need to be calibrated and certified, so they're always more accurate than car speedometers.
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booshank
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by booshank »

The M4 part time ALR between the M32 and Almondsbury seems to work quite well. Traffic seems to flow more smoothly in heavy conditions as it did before as almost everyone does the indicated limit so there's less lane changing, changing speeds etc and traffic is better spread across all lanes.
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ManomayLR
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by ManomayLR »

booshank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 19:30 The M4 part time ALR between the M32 and Almondsbury seems to work quite well. Traffic seems to flow more smoothly in heavy conditions as it did before as almost everyone does the indicated limit so there's less lane changing, changing speeds etc and traffic is better spread across all lanes.
It’s called DHSR (dynamic hard shoulder running) and actually most people don’t understand how to use it very well, which is why all DHSR schemes will be converted to permanent ALR by 2025.
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Smart motorways or suicide motorways

Post by highwayman »

Are these so called smart motorways really going to work , think about it , not every motorist that breaks down on them will reach a E.R bay , therefore putting there own lives and other motorists lives at risk , along with causing tail backs , leading to another risk of collision, H.E traffic officers being put at risk having to deal with the breakdowns.

Basic maintenance, such as litter picking , gully emptying on the near side cant no longer be done along the nearside of the carriageway .

We're going back in time , anyone remember the S 3's , left lane , right lane , sucide, those roads were introduced, not to long after , they went back to S 2 , I can see similar happening with the smart ( sucide) motorways ,,,, at least it won't take anywhere near as long to change back to 3 lane with hard shoulder.

Unfortunately for the smart motorways to be scrapped, there will have to be a multi fatal collision, involving a coach full of passengers or schoolchildren, breaking down at night , then a HGV , colliding with the coach ,,,,,, I pray to God that this will never happen , the chance of this happening is higher than a motorway with a hard should6

Mod Note: Merged with the main smart motorways thread
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Helvellyn
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Re: Smart motorways or suicide motorways

Post by Helvellyn »

It's rather an exaggeration to compare them with S3s, and the maintenance problems are surely no worse than non-motorway dual carriageways. "Smart" motorways certainly aren't great (nothing labelled "smart" ever is) but they're not quite that terrible.
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Re: Smart motorways or suicide motorways

Post by Bomag »

Helvellyn wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 00:49 It's rather an exaggeration to compare them with S3s, and the maintenance problems are surely no worse than non-motorway dual carriageways. "Smart" motorways certainly aren't great (nothing labelled "smart" ever is) but they're not quite that terrible.
Modern APTR have hardshrips and verges to facilitate maintenance (plus hard standings). These are not provided on motorways as the hard shoulder does the same job. So when you covert the hard shoulder to an ALR running lane you have nowhere to work from when maintaining anything in the verge (which is not adjacent to a EA) including drains and vegetation. So everything has to done under lane closures.
Last edited by Bomag on Fri Jun 25, 2021 14:05, edited 1 time in total.
Peter Freeman
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Re: Smart motorways or suicide motorways

Post by Peter Freeman »

I suggest that this topic should be merged with one of the two topics already running on Smart Motorways ( "Future of ..." and the more recent "All Lane Running ...").
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Re: Smart motorways or suicide motorways

Post by KeithW »

highwayman wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 23:48 Are these so called smart motorways really going to work , think about it , not every motorist that breaks down on them will reach a E.R bay , therefore putting there own lives and other motorists lives at risk , along with causing tail backs , leading to another risk of collision, H.E traffic officers being put at risk having to deal with the breakdowns.

Basic maintenance, such as litter picking , gully emptying on the near side cant no longer be done along the nearside of the carriageway .

We're going back in time , anyone remember the S 3's , left lane , right lane , sucide, those roads were introduced, not to long after , they went back to S 2 , I can see similar happening with the smart ( sucide) motorways ,,,, at least it won't take anywhere near as long to change back to 3 lane with hard shoulder.

Unfortunately for the smart motorways to be scrapped, there will have to be a multi fatal collision, involving a coach full of passengers or schoolchildren, breaking down at night , then a HGV , colliding with the coach ,,,,,, I pray to God that this will never happen , the chance of this happening is higher than a motorway with a hard should6

Reality check, statistical analysis has shown that Smart Motorways are just as safe as normal motorways and MUCH safer than busy all purpose roads such as the A34, A43, A19,A1 etc. Comparing them with S3 roads is simply grotesque. Many 3 lane roads still exist they are simply marked as alternating 2 lane and 1 lane sections. Behold the A16 at Louth.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.35610 ... authuser=0

Another point to remember is that not every driver who breaks down on a conventional motorway makes it to the hard shoulder either. In an ideal world we would follow the practice in many US States where they have a shoulder alongside both the road edge and median.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.93600 ... authuser=0

However Ohio has about 20% of the population density of England and its mostly flat with low land prices, a typical suburban house comes with up to an acre of land.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@39.93072 ... authuser=0
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bryn666 »

The multiple motorway fatality involving a bus has already happened.

A driver of a minibus on the M40 struck a stationary maintenance vehicle on the hard shoulder and 13 people died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_minibus_crash

Smart motorways have problems, but people screeching about how wonderful hard shoulders are have clearly never actually used one.
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solocle
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by solocle »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 12:19 The multiple motorway fatality involving a bus has already happened.

A driver of a minibus on the M40 struck a stationary maintenance vehicle on the hard shoulder and 13 people died.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M40_minibus_crash

Smart motorways have problems, but people screeching about how wonderful hard shoulders are have clearly never actually used one.
Almost certainly a case of target fixation, I suspect. Hard shoulders aren't safe for stationary vehicles for that reason, but those hard shoulder collisions are unlikely to be affected by it being a smart motorway, yet it opens up more potential collisions.

I'm sure any NMU who has taken a wrong turn onto a motorway was most grateful for the presence of the hard shoulder - although in the reported case of one lady, she had to cross the entire motorway to reach it, as she joined at the M60 J25 Bredbury Interchange.

In the two cases of fatal collisions that I'm aware of, one happened in lane 2, and the other occured at This Works Unit turning on the M40, where the cyclist was struck by an HGV - again, if I had to hazard a guess, the HGV likely confused that exit with theirs, and as a works unit turning the cyclist probably wasn't expecting anything.
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