All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

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Phil
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 09:28
Piatkow wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 08:39
Chris5156 wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 05:13
Indeed. But equally, the flip side of that coin is never engaged with either: namely, that a large percentage of all vehicles stopped on the hard shoulder are not stopped for emergencies, they are stopped for phone calls or toilet trips in the undergrowth or to get something out of the boot, and the drivers making those non-emergency stops are putting themselves in huge danger because they incorrectly perceive that there is somewhere safe for them to pull over. Accidents happen in significant numbers that would be entirely avoided if those vehicles were not stopped and their drivers had found some safer place to stop off the motorway.

Removing the hard shoulder removes the temptation. Does the absence of all those vehicles unnecessarily and dangerously stopped on a live motorway provide a safety improvement, compared to a world where people are routinely trying to change tyres or getting toddlers out of the car for a wee next to a 70mph live lane?
I agree about the hard shoulder giving a false sense of security. A friend of mine suffered life changing injuries after his car was rear ended on the HS while he had his head under the bonnet trying to fix a problem himself.
Its stories like this that have made me decide that, HS or not, if my car develops an issue (puncture etc) I'm carrying on as quickly/safely as possible to a junction, ERA or other "safer" area than the HS, even at the risk of further damage to my car. It only takes one unaware driver to wander from L1 across the line to cause, as you describe, life changing injuries.
Please note that the OFFICIAL ADVICE is to get out of your vehicle ASAP once it has stopped on the hard shoulder (via the passenger / nearside door) GET BEHIND THE CRASH BARRIER and STAY A GOOD 20M AWAY from your vehicle. This should ensure that (1) you are not going to be hit by vehicles, or indeed (2) debris from any hard shoulder collision.

You should NOT attempt ANY REPAIRS to your vehicle, however minor while it is on the hard shoulder - only professional recovery personnel should be doing that (if they believe it is safe to do so) as they will place their recover truck with (its many hazard lights) behind yours to draw attention to the situation and hopefully make passing drivers concentrate on keeping out of the HS.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 16:58
Arcuarius wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 16:14
Phil wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 23:11However that sort of response ignores the REAL issue.....

... Namely that in any other western European country such key roads would NOT be bog standard A roads in the first place!

Instead they would be motorways WITH hard shoulders!
That's the sort of cloud cuckoo land thinking I just love to see on SABRE :lol:
I think there's a couple of pertinent questions to be asked here:

Phil: which European countries are you referring to specifically? France's road network is massively different to the Netherlands for example

Arcuarius: While sarcasm can be entertaining, it's rarely informative. Can you expand on your reasoning?
Take a look at those Michalean maps which show (or used to show) a separate category of "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" These roads were NOT bog standard dual carriageways (said bog standard dual carriageway were shown completely differently)

In the UK you had the odd isolated bits of "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" like the A55 around Conway and bits of the A2 between the M25 & M2 because said roads came equipped with hard shoulders, but these were the exception.

By contrast France had many, many KMs of contentious "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" shown on said maps - as did Spain IIRC.

Consequently its reasonably easy to demonstrate that the UK lagged behind other Western European countries when it comes to the standard of non motorway strategic connections, most of which are very poor.

Granted because the general standard of UK drivers has traditional been better than those other nations it may be that the UK has been able to 'get away' with a worse standard of provision without unduly affecting accident statistics.

Also, if you study the maps, you will note that in many other countries they have been quite happy to build routes as D2M (with HS) to link places which in the UK we don't deem necessary to link with motorways. The A14 is a prime example of this - In France or Germany, such an important route for goods traffic would have been a motorway (or at the very least a "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics"), and not the traditional UK 'do it on the cheap' bog standard dual carriageway with at grade footpath crossings, tractors permitted, at grade crossings through the centre reserve.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:39
rhyds wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 16:58 I think there's a couple of pertinent questions to be asked here:

Phil: which European countries are you referring to specifically? France's road network is massively different to the Netherlands for example
Take a look at those Michalean maps which show (or used to show) a separate category of "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" These roads were NOT bog standard dual carriageways (said bog standard dual carriageway were shown completely differently)
Michalean maps? Maps made by someone called Michal? If you mean Michelin maps, can you provide a link so we can work out what you're actually referring to? I've never owned a Michelin map of the UK so can't tell what they describe as "motorway characteristics".

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:39 In the UK you had the odd isolated bits of "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" like the A55 around Conway and bits of the A2 between the M25 & M2 because said roads came equipped with hard shoulders, but these were the exception.

By contrast France had many, many KMs of contentious "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics" shown on said maps - as did Spain IIRC.


Consequently its reasonably easy to demonstrate that the UK lagged behind other Western European countries when it comes to the standard of non motorway strategic connections, most of which are very poor.
The A55 sections you mention around Conwy (no A, Conway was a chap who played the piano) is probably the section through Bae Colwyn / Colwyn Bay, which does have an HS, but is also mainly 50mph and is a special road with tightly spaced junctions. The A55 across Ynys Mon / Anglesey and the A483 Wrecsam bypass are two stretches of road with much better alignment than the Colwyn Bay Bypass however neither, I'm guessing, would show up as "Motorway Characteristics" on the Michelin maps.

As for "non motorway strategic connections", how does the Michelin map describe the A14? A42?

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:39
Granted because the general standard of UK drivers has traditional been better than those other nations it may be that the UK has been able to 'get away' with a worse standard of provision without unduly affecting accident statistics.
Can you please provide evidence for this assertion? It seems a very sweeping statement.


Phil wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:39 Also, if you study the maps, you will note that in many other countries they have been quite happy to build routes as D2M (with HS) to link places which in the UK we don't deem necessary to link with motorways. The A14 is a prime example of this - In France or Germany, such an important route for goods traffic would have been a motorway (or at the very least a "Dual carriageway with motorway characteristics"), and not the traditional UK 'do it on the cheap' bog standard dual carriageway with at grade footpath crossings, tractors permitted, at grade crossings through the centre reserve.
In France however a long distance route like that would, most likely, be a Peage/toll motorway, which the UK has tried and traffic levels show its not a workable solution. As for Germany, having toured in Germany a few years ago, the Autobahn standards may have been D2M, but it was not the same as the UK's standards for D2M, IIRC the HS is a fair bit narrower (It is in France) on many European highways. Also France and Germany are, geographically, very different to the UK (and England especially) having comparable populations but a considerably larger land mass.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Herned »

rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20
Michalean maps? Maps made by someone called Michal? If you mean Michelin maps, can you provide a link so we can work out what you're actually referring to? I've never owned a Michelin map of the UK so can't tell what they describe as "motorway characteristics".
Is there any need for such sarcasm about a simple typo?
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

Herned wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:33
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20
Michalean maps? Maps made by someone called Michal? If you mean Michelin maps, can you provide a link so we can work out what you're actually referring to? I've never owned a Michelin map of the UK so can't tell what they describe as "motorway characteristics".
Is there any need for such sarcasm about a simple typo?
I wanted to confirm that we were discussing Michelin mapping. A link or description would help confirm this
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

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rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:48
Herned wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:33
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20
Michalean maps? Maps made by someone called Michal? If you mean Michelin maps, can you provide a link so we can work out what you're actually referring to? I've never owned a Michelin map of the UK so can't tell what they describe as "motorway characteristics".
Is there any need for such sarcasm about a simple typo?
I wanted to confirm that we were discussing Michelin mapping. A link or description would help confirm this
You could have just said "If you mean Michelin maps…" without the whole belittling nonsense which proceeded it.

But if you do want to know you could have typed "Michelin maps" into Google to look at one. Even searching for Michalean maps it is still the first result. It would have been much quicker than what you typed, let alone waiting for someone else to find out for you.

Try it.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

someone wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 16:49
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:48
Herned wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:33

Is there any need for such sarcasm about a simple typo?
I wanted to confirm that we were discussing Michelin mapping. A link or description would help confirm this
You could have just said "If you mean Michelin maps…" without the whole belittling nonsense which proceeded it.

But if you do want to know you could have typed "Michelin maps" into Google to look at one. Even searching for Michalean maps it is still the first result. It would have been much quicker than what you typed, let alone waiting for someone else to find out for you.

Try it.
I could search for Michalean maps or Michelin maps, however considering they've been making maps for well over a century it's unclear which map series Phil is referring to. Are we looking at the current online mapping? Current paper mapping or a past paper map? There's no frame of reference for the assertion made.

Imagine I'd discussed something on a "Burt's" map. Is that a Bartholomew map? If so which series? Or is it a map made by someone called Burt? Discussions around smart motorways really should be evidence based rather than depending on media headlines and half recalled "facts".
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 17:04
someone wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 16:49
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 15:48

I wanted to confirm that we were discussing Michelin mapping. A link or description would help confirm this
You could have just said "If you mean Michelin maps…" without the whole belittling nonsense which proceeded it.

But if you do want to know you could have typed "Michelin maps" into Google to look at one. Even searching for Michalean maps it is still the first result. It would have been much quicker than what you typed, let alone waiting for someone else to find out for you.

Try it.
I could search for Michalean maps or Michelin maps, however considering they've been making maps for well over a century it's unclear which map series Phil is referring to. Are we looking at the current online mapping? Current paper mapping or a past paper map? There's no frame of reference for the assertion made.

Imagine I'd discussed something on a "Burt's" map. Is that a Bartholomew map? If so which series? Or is it a map made by someone called Burt? Discussions around smart motorways really should be evidence based rather than depending on media headlines and half recalled "facts".
Have a look here:- https://www.viamichelin.co.uk/web/Route ... 7673251352;

Note that the N27 is shown as a 'bog standard' dual carriageway - and on Google streetview thats exactly what it is https://www.google.com/maps/@49.7645085 ... 384!8i8192

Now look here:-https://www.viamichelin.co.uk/web/Route ... 7673251352;

Note that the N24 is a 'Dual Carriageway with Motorway characteristics' and on streetview that is exactly what the road is, complete with hard shoulders.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.0830485 ... 384!8i8192
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20
In France however a long distance route like that would, most likely, be a Peage/toll motorway, which the UK has tried and traffic levels show its not a workable solution.
This is ONLY because the UK decided to go with the German example of 'free' motorways!

Had the UK built toll motorways then we would have a far better motorway network both in terms of network coverage and indeed road quality as motorway construction + maintenance would be independent of HM Treasury and not liable to be axed when Government budgets get tight!

The reason that the M6 toll hasn't been a success in the UK is:-
(1) It is paralleled by the free to use M6
(2) Motorists in the UK have grown up expecting motorways to be free (other than the odd bridge / tunnel) and will seek out alternatives.

Naturally you start asking UK motorists to start paying for something they traditionally regard as 'free' is not going to work!

I contend that if the M1, M6, etc had been tolled from the outset, then the UK motoring population would have no qualms about paying motorway tolls and the M6 toll would have been a success
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by SouthWest Philip »

It is worth noting that the traffic lanes and hard shoulders on French motorways and dual carriageway are somewhat narrower than in the UK. To my untrained eye, a French D2H/D2M at most looks only marginally wider than a HQD2 with hard shoulders in the UK.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20 As for Germany, having toured in Germany a few years ago, the Autobahn standards may have been D2M, but it was not the same as the UK's standards for D2M, IIRC the HS is a fair bit narrower (It is in France) on many European highways. Also France and Germany are, geographically, very different to the UK (and England especially) having comparable populations but a considerably larger land mass.
Even narrow hard shoulders on the likes of the A14, A34 or A42 would be better than NONE!

Turning round and saying the UK is superior because where we have bothered to fit hard shoulders is a bit like using the exsistance of a few posh private schools to claim we are superior in the education stakes and ignoring the vast quantity of not so good schools that cater for the rest of the population.

Yes our motorway network may well be heavily trafficked and superior to other countries networks in design stakes, but by the time you add up all those miles of strategic dual carriageway like the A34, A1, etc its clear that there is a massive amount of strategic traffic being carried outside the motorway network too.

Finally Geography doesn't come into it - a strategic important road is just that, be it 10 miles long or 100 miles wrong. Trying to say "well they are only 25miles apart so we can get away with a bog standard dual carriageway is small minded cheapskate thinking beloved of bean counters which has crippled the UKs outlook for centuries. The amount or type of traffic isn't going to suddenly change because HM Treasury decided they want to spend less will it!

Don't forget we are talking about roads like the A14 here - a road that links the busiest container port in the UK to the manufacturing heart / main distribution depots for the country. As such it deserves to have the same features as motorways, i.e. hard shoulder (or Smart motorway equipment), bans on tractors, no at grade crossings etc.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

SouthWest Philip wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:38 It is worth noting that the traffic lanes and hard shoulders on French motorways and dual carriageway are somewhat narrower than in the UK. To my untrained eye, a French D2H/D2M at most looks only marginally wider than a HQD2 with hard shoulders in the UK.
Still better than just 1 metre hardstrips as found on the A14 though...
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

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Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:26
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 17:04
someone wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 16:49

You could have just said "If you mean Michelin maps…" without the whole belittling nonsense which proceeded it.

But if you do want to know you could have typed "Michelin maps" into Google to look at one. Even searching for Michalean maps it is still the first result. It would have been much quicker than what you typed, let alone waiting for someone else to find out for you.

Try it.
I could search for Michalean maps or Michelin maps, however considering they've been making maps for well over a century it's unclear which map series Phil is referring to. Are we looking at the current online mapping? Current paper mapping or a past paper map? There's no frame of reference for the assertion made.

Imagine I'd discussed something on a "Burt's" map. Is that a Bartholomew map? If so which series? Or is it a map made by someone called Burt? Discussions around smart motorways really should be evidence based rather than depending on media headlines and half recalled "facts".
Have a look here:- https://www.viamichelin.co.uk/web/Route ... 7673251352;

Note that the N27 is shown as a 'bog standard' dual carriageway - and on Google streetview thats exactly what it is https://www.google.com/maps/@49.7645085 ... 384!8i8192

Now look here:-https://www.viamichelin.co.uk/web/Route ... 7673251352;

Note that the N24 is a 'Dual Carriageway with Motorway characteristics' and on streetview that is exactly what the road is, complete with hard shoulders.

https://www.google.com/maps/@48.0830485 ... 384!8i8192
The michelin links aren't quite working (it invites me to plan a route to a town, rather than showing what you're describing). Could you consider posting a screengrab or similar? Either way, thanks for confirming the mapping source you're using.

However the google streetview links do work, and I'd hesitate to call your second example a hard shoulder. From the image it doesn't look wide enough for a truck to pull over in to, and even a large/wide car may struggle.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Debaser »

Phil wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:12 (1) What is the statistical split between 'genuine' emergencies (such as punctures) and 'fake' emergencies like needing the loo*? A split of say 25% versus 75% would suggest that removing the hard shoulder is better while a 75% versus 25% would say that the hard shoulder should stay.
German research, I believe subsequently confirmed in the UK, is that 90% of 'emergencies' are discretionary stops and only 10% are for actual vehicle breakdowns (which includes running out of fuel as the biggest cause).
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:49
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20 As for Germany, having toured in Germany a few years ago, the Autobahn standards may have been D2M, but it was not the same as the UK's standards for D2M, IIRC the HS is a fair bit narrower (It is in France) on many European highways. Also France and Germany are, geographically, very different to the UK (and England especially) having comparable populations but a considerably larger land mass.
Even narrow hard shoulders on the likes of the A14, A34 or A42 would be better than NONE!

First off, there's no need to shout. We're trying to keep discussions on the boards more civil than in the past, and shouting doesn't make your point any more valid, just louder.
Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:49 Turning round and saying the UK is superior because where we have bothered to fit hard shoulders is a bit like using the exsistance of a few posh private schools to claim we are superior in the education stakes and ignoring the vast quantity of not so good
schools that cater for the rest of the population.

Yes our motorway network may well be heavily trafficked and superior to other countries networks in design stakes, but by the time you add up all those miles of strategic dual carriageway like the A34, A1, etc its clear that there is a massive amount of strategic traffic being carried outside the motorway network too.
However there is a valid point to be made comparing what Michelin and the French design standards consider a hard shoulder and what your calling for, which I assume is the provision of a full UK/English standard HS rather than the cut-down French example you've shared.

Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:49 Finally Geography doesn't come into it - a strategic important road is just that, be it 10 miles long or 100 miles wrong. Trying to say "well they are only 25miles apart so we can get away with a bog standard dual carriageway is small minded cheapskate thinking beloved of bean counters which has crippled the UKs outlook for centuries. The amount or type of traffic isn't going to suddenly change because HM Treasury decided they want to spend less will it!
Geography (and most importantly population density) certainly does come in to it, its probably the greatest limit to how much space (and how much it costs) we have to fit wider roads in.

Using this site we can see that France's population density is 119 per Km2 (309 people per mi2). The same figure for the UK is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2), or more than double. This can most obviously be seen when travelling by ferry on the Calais-Dover route. The port at Calais is a huge operation with 100s of acres of flat land around it and plenty of space to build roads, shipping infrastructure and everything else.

Compare that to Dover, where the port is squeezed in by the Cliffs and the town, there's clearly much less space to build infrastructure so we have to apply different standards and different solutions to France because we simply don't have the space.

The same applies to our road infrastructure, especially the core network which passes through the centre of England, which is massively densely populated. The cost of widening something like the M6/M5/M42 loop to D4HS would be massively, colossally, mind bendingly expensive and would probably absorb Highways England's toner budget for a month to print out the number of zeros involved.

Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:49 Don't forget we are talking about roads like the A14 here - a road that links the busiest container port in the UK to the manufacturing heart / main distribution depots for the country. As such it deserves to have the same features as motorways, i.e. hard shoulder (or Smart motorway equipment), bans on tractors, no at grade crossings etc.
Except that the A14, as far as I have experienced, doesn't seem to suffer much difficulties by not having a hard shoulder, and the cost of retrofitting one would, I guess, equal the cost that adding a third lane to the Kettering bypass did, but with zero impact on traffic congestion.

As an aside, if you were given the power to "magic" a third lane on to the A14 all the way from Catthorpe to Huntingdon, which of the following options would you go for?

1) Hard Shoulder with no traffic running at all
2) Hard Shoulder with part time running
3) Full time 3rd lane
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 11:35
rhyds wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 14:20
In France however a long distance route like that would, most likely, be a Peage/toll motorway, which the UK has tried and traffic levels show its not a workable solution.
This is ONLY because the UK decided to go with the German example of 'free' motorways!

Had the UK built toll motorways then we would have a far better motorway network both in terms of network coverage and indeed road quality as motorway construction + maintenance would be independent of HM Treasury and not liable to be axed when Government budgets get tight!

The reason that the M6 toll hasn't been a success in the UK is:-
(1) It is paralleled by the free to use M6
(2) Motorists in the UK have grown up expecting motorways to be free (other than the odd bridge / tunnel) and will seek out alternatives.

Naturally you start asking UK motorists to start paying for something they traditionally regard as 'free' is not going to work!

I contend that if the M1, M6, etc had been tolled from the outset, then the UK motoring population would have no qualms about paying motorway tolls and the M6 toll would have been a success

Of course, if motorways had been tolled from the outset then we wouldn't have built the network in the way we currently have, therefore the M6 Toll route may never have existed at all!
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:30

However there is a valid point to be made comparing what Michelin and the French design standards consider a hard shoulder and what your calling for, which I assume is the provision of a full UK/English standard HS rather than the cut-down French example you've shared.
While a UK width hard shoulder would obviously provide grater safety benefits, even the French narrow ones would provide somewhere for a car to pull over out of a live traffic lane*.

* And to satisfy the critics of hard shoulders that doesn't mean you hang around in the car waiting for help to turn up or start changing a wheel yourself - it just provides a means of getting the vehicle as far away from the live traffic as it possible - something 1m hardstrips do not!

Furthermore assuming careful placement of bridges etc it gives the opportunity for further widening to take place to turn it into a full running lane (though in such cases my preference is that that narrow intermittent shoulders are fitted.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by rhyds »

Phil wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:59
rhyds wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:30

However there is a valid point to be made comparing what Michelin and the French design standards consider a hard shoulder and what your calling for, which I assume is the provision of a full UK/English standard HS rather than the cut-down French example you've shared.
While a UK width hard shoulder would obviously provide grater safety benefits, even the French narrow ones would provide somewhere for a car to pull over out of a live traffic lane*.

* And to satisfy the critics of hard shoulders that doesn't mean you hang around in the car waiting for help to turn up or start changing a wheel yourself - it just provides a means of getting the vehicle as far away from the live traffic as it possible - something 1m hardstrips do not!

Furthermore assuming careful placement of bridges etc it gives the opportunity for further widening to take place to turn it into a full running lane (though in such cases my preference is that that narrow intermittent shoulders are fitted.
The problem is see (but don't have solid evidence for) is that while a narrow HS might get the vehicle out of the way of L1 (if the vehicle is narrow enough) its unclear how much protection this will give against someone hitting the offside of said vehicle, and may even give traffic more confidence to pass at full speed, even if the vehicle is in fact not totally within the hard shoulder.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:30
Geography (and most importantly population density) certainly does come in to it, its probably the greatest limit to how much space (and how much it costs) we have to fit wider roads in.

Using this site we can see that France's population density is 119 per Km2 (309 people per mi2). The same figure for the UK is 281 per Km2 (727 people per mi2), or more than double. This can most obviously be seen when travelling by ferry on the Calais-Dover route. The port at Calais is a huge operation with 100s of acres of flat land around it and plenty of space to build roads, shipping infrastructure and everything else.

Compare that to Dover, where the port is squeezed in by the Cliffs and the town, there's clearly much less space to build infrastructure so we have to apply different standards and different solutions to France because we simply don't have the space.

The same applies to our road infrastructure, especially the core network which passes through the centre of England, which is massively densely populated. The cost of widening something like the M6/M5/M42 loop to D4HS would be massively, colossally, mind bendingly expensive and would probably absorb Highways England's toner budget for a month to print out the number of zeros involved.
Sorry, geography doesn't come into it when we are talking about the provision of hard shoulders on strategic routes like the A14!

The amount of HGV traffic on the A14 is not going to change regardless of whether Felixstowe and Daventry are 10 miles apart or the 128miles!

Whether to provide a hard shoulder (or indeed other motorway features including matrix signs + emergency telephones every mile) should not depend on distance - its a function of the types, speed and volume of traffic the route is expected to handle. The grater the later, the garter the chances of an incident happening - particularly when you start adding other sub standard features like at grade pedestrian crossings into the mix.

Yes there may be localised features which mean a brief section of no hard shoulder is required, but such instances should very much be the exception and not the norm.
Last edited by Phil on Sat Apr 11, 2020 13:10, edited 1 time in total.
Phil
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Phil »

rhyds wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 13:06
However there is a valid point to be made comparing what Michelin and the French design standards consider a hard shoulder and what your calling for, which I assume is the provision of a full UK/English standard HS rather than the cut-down French example you've shared.
While a UK width hard shoulder would obviously provide grater safety benefits, even the French narrow ones would provide somewhere for a car to pull over out of a live traffic lane*.

* And to satisfy the critics of hard shoulders that doesn't mean you hang around in the car waiting for help to turn up or start changing a wheel yourself - it just provides a means of getting the vehicle as far away from the live traffic as it possible - something 1m hardstrips do not!

Furthermore assuming careful placement of bridges etc it gives the opportunity for further widening to take place to turn it into a full running lane (though in such cases my preference is that that narrow intermittent shoulders are fitted.
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The problem is see (but don't have solid evidence for) is that while a narrow HS might get the vehicle out of the way of L1 (if the vehicle is narrow enough) its unclear how much protection this will give against someone hitting the offside of said vehicle, and may even give traffic more confidence to pass at full speed, even if the vehicle is in fact not totally within the hard shoulder.
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