All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

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Bendo
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bendo »

And no doubt when HADECS red x enforcement was finally type approved, they didn't consider that scenario so nothing will happen.
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Bryn666
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bryn666 »

c2R wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 08:52 I witnessed this morning on the England M1 a large amount of HGV traffic in the hard shoulder between J12 and J13 travelling at between 50 and 60mph - however all the gantries were off, meaning the hard shoulder wasn't in operation.... It was a mixture of UK and contintental vhicles, as well as road maintenance type vehicles, presumably heading for the works site from 13 northbound...

It's very clear that there is a definite gulf in understanding of motorists how and when to use these roads.
No other country that has dynamic hard shoulder running uses "blank" as a default condition. There is either a green arrow or red X at all times, and a blank signal is treated as a red X for this purpose.

Someone dropped a big hairy testicle with that decision in my view.
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Chris Bertram
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Chris Bertram »

Bryn666 wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 12:21
c2R wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 08:52 I witnessed this morning on the England M1 a large amount of HGV traffic in the hard shoulder between J12 and J13 travelling at between 50 and 60mph - however all the gantries were off, meaning the hard shoulder wasn't in operation.... It was a mixture of UK and contintental vhicles, as well as road maintenance type vehicles, presumably heading for the works site from 13 northbound...

It's very clear that there is a definite gulf in understanding of motorists how and when to use these roads.
No other country that has dynamic hard shoulder running uses "blank" as a default condition. There is either a green arrow or red X at all times, and a blank signal is treated as a red X for this purpose.

Someone dropped a big hairy testicle with that decision in my view.
No other country that I have visited uses the "blackout" phase on pedestrian signals, either - it's one of the amber man, straight back to red, or flashing green to signify "hurry up and finish crossing".
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by mikehindsonevans »

For quite a few weeks now, both on Sunday evenings (eastbound) and on Friday evenings (homebound), the overhead gantries on the M6 Midland Links viaducts have been set to "one red X and three NSL" - which is eminently sensible.

Taking the churlish view that HE have very little (non-M42 pilot - the original M42 was a well-signed success back in 2007) credibility left, what the heck is preventing them from rolling this out across every gantry over a "smart" motorway?
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Arcuarius »

JonH wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:26Saw that report - there is nothing currently on the BBC website. Not that there'd be much point - reading comments here, it's clear that many highways "experts" attitudes to road deaths is "meh"
No, it isn't :roll:
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Bendo
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bendo »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 14:23 For quite a few weeks now, both on Sunday evenings (eastbound) and on Friday evenings (homebound), the overhead gantries on the M6 Midland Links viaducts have been set to "one red X and three NSL" - which is eminently sensible.

Taking the churlish view that HE have very little (non-M42 pilot - the original M42 was a well-signed success back in 2007) credibility left, what the heck is preventing them from rolling this out across every gantry over a "smart" motorway?
It's only sensible if the same policy is used everywhere. If it isn't then it only serves to confuse people more and its an example of people making decisions they shouldn't.

Expect further confused drivers due to signage set seemingly randomly at a whim.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by jervi »

If you start putting red Xs over the hardshoulder on the few bits of DHS we have, then people may start driving in the HS of other motorway cause they don't have a red X. I'd say the kill DHS ASAP. The cheap fix is to make DHS either a full-time HS, or mark it as just another lane (ALR), but then put a red X above it (so it operates as current DHS would).
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bryn666 »

jervi wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 15:49 If you start putting red Xs over the hardshoulder on the few bits of DHS we have, then people may start driving in the HS of other motorway cause they don't have a red X. I'd say the kill DHS ASAP. The cheap fix is to make DHS either a full-time HS, or mark it as just another lane (ALR), but then put a red X above it (so it operates as current DHS would).
This is how the Dutch "plus" lanes worked in the 1990s.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Jeni »

JonH wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 11:26Not that there'd be much point - reading comments here, it's clear that many highways "experts" attitudes to road deaths is "meh"
[citation needed]
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ellandback
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by ellandback »

jervi wrote: Tue Mar 10, 2020 15:49 If you start putting red Xs over the hardshoulder on the few bits of DHS we have, then people may start driving in the HS of other motorway cause they don't have a red X.
'Non-DHS' motorways don't have red X signals over the hard shoulder though? But if this is considered to be an issue it could perhaps be fixed by getting the VMS boards to display "Hardshoulder for emergency use only" at all times when the DHS lane is closed, instead of using the red X.

I've seen people using the M62 DHS lane on several occasions when it was meant to be closed, so I do agree with the principle that, somehow, open or closed should be unambiguously stated at all times.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by ellandback »

As I was driving home tonight I was reminded of the current "Red X means lane closed" campaign, with the message being displayed on one of the VMS boards as I went past. It occurred to me in the context of this discussion that, of course, it wouldn't be a huge leap from there for someone to conclude that "No red X means lane (or part time lane) not closed".
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by fras »

Has anybody managed to get through the government analysis and report on SMART motorways ? I did start last night, but got rather sleepy after a few pages, (it was late, though). This paragraph in the announcement caught my eye straightaway: -
This follows analysis commissioned by the Transport Secretary which found that overall, evidence shows that in most ways smart motorways are as safe as, or safer than, conventional ones. Data shows that the risks that are lower on smart motorways compared with conventional motorways include tailgating, rapid changes of vehicle speeds, vehicles drifting off the carriageway and vehicles being driven too fast.
(my bold)

The only thing is - if it is all so safe, why don't I feel safe on a SMART motorway ? Lorries in Lanes 1, 2 & 3 could be part of it.
Bendo
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Bendo »

Why do lorries make you feel unsafe, and how is the scenario you posted any different from a traditional D4M?
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by SteveA30 »

No continuous safe refuge, if in lane 1, which I almost always am.
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jackal
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by jackal »

The HS is not a safe refuge. 1/12 of motorway deaths are on it.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Stevie D »

fras wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 13:12The only thing is - if it is all so safe, why don't I feel safe on a SMART motorway ? Lorries in Lanes 1, 2 & 3 could be part of it.
Serious answer – because humans are notoriously bad at estimating risk and probability.
There are a lot of drivers who would say they feel safer on a country lane than on a motorway, even though the evidence tells us that motorways are much safer than country lanes.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by fras »

Stevie D wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 21:08
fras wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 13:12The only thing is - if it is all so safe, why don't I feel safe on a SMART motorway ? Lorries in Lanes 1, 2 & 3 could be part of it.
Serious answer – because humans are notoriously bad at estimating risk and probability.
There are a lot of drivers who would say they feel safer on a country lane than on a motorway, even though the evidence tells us that motorways are much safer than country lanes.
I think part of my apprehension is the fact that virtually all fatal accidents on motorways involve an HGV. And before anbody asks, no, I haven't the reference to hand immediately as this analysis of accidents was some years ago. Maybe it's now out of date, but I suspect not.
You are, of course, quite right about the dangers of country roads, and I have seen some seriously bad driving on them whilst tootling around. However, I would have thought the fatal accident rate was a lot lower, surely ?
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Chris5156 »

fras wrote: Fri Mar 13, 2020 23:47You are, of course, quite right about the dangers of country roads, and I have seen some seriously bad driving on them whilst tootling around. However, I would have thought the fatal accident rate was a lot lower, surely ?
I expect the absolute number of accidents that happen on country lanes is indeed lower than the absolute number of accidents that happen on motorways, yes.

The accident rate, though, probably refers to the number of accidents per vehicle mile, and relates to the fact that more miles are travelled by UK drivers every year on motorways than on country lanes - so, if you drive a mile on a country lane, you are more likely to be involved in an accident than if you drive a mile on a motorway.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by SteveA30 »

The HS is not a safe refuge. 1/12 of motorway deaths are on it.
Safer than not having one. I'll bet most of that 1/12th are drivers falling asleep or staring at gadgets, nothing to do with the HS itself.
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Re: All Lane Running - Smart Motorways ?

Post by Big L »

SteveA30 wrote: Sat Mar 14, 2020 07:41
The HS is not a safe refuge. 1/12 of motorway deaths are on it.
Safer than not having one. I'll bet most of that 1/12th are drivers falling asleep or staring at gadgets, nothing to do with the HS itself.
That's a truly incredible statement.
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