Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

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Bertiebus
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by Bertiebus »

MFB wrote: Mon Oct 29, 2018 16:31as soon as I got south of Luton there was a noticeable decline in the standard of driving in terms of... lack of indicating...
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by Berk »

DB617 wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:48 Country lanes do indeed come with indestructible locals who treat NSL lanes as a challenge, not a maximum. Especially at corners they'll still be rushing up through the gears. Due to low traffic levels an accident rarely occurs but until recently with increased head-on collision safety, most of those accidents had a high chance of being a KSI. Each area generates its own version of wilfully negligent driving, especially from the upper class.
Whilst that may be true, I’ve seen just as many people who drive at 40-45mph on open country roads, around 37mph on (series of) bends, and 20mph on 30 limit lanes.

Completely infuriating because it’s usually impossible to overtake them, but you have to follow them in order to get to the next junction. :@

That may well be when I’ve got my weekday driver hat on, but even at the weekend I expect to go no less than 50. Or 25 in a 30.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by phil gollin »

James wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 07:40 ....... Savvy junction users also know about the bit of signage that 'lies' which means quite a bit of Heathrow traffic undertakes people following the signs.
Yes, one of the problems is with regular commuters being aware of "clever" traffic engineers tricks (both on Motorways and dual carriageways). Whilst the majority follow the signs, the savvy cut-in or otherwise disrupt the flows (another traffic engineer disaster is bad expanding from one to two, or two to three lanes at junctions or roundabouts when the road narrows again afterwards). These CAN be good for allowing slow moving traffic to be overtaken, but with heavy traffic flows it can cause ridiculous racing and very poor behaviour.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by ellandback »

James wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:00
Its the only place I've seen drivers cut over into the on-slip to undertake drivers on the slow (but moving) mainline just to cut back in and move a few cars forward!
I've seen it happen on the M62 at j25 here on more than one occasion. People cutting across from the mainline over the right hand lane of the on slip and into the left hand lane, even though this means crossing no fewer than four solid white lines, and then moving back in when they reach the back of the queue in the left hand lane.
James wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:00
Still London frequently takes the biscuit for me. Nowhere else have I seen such aggressive and disrespectful driving.
I remember walking through London once and coming to a zebra crossing. A white van was approaching at some speed. I don't know who was more surprised - me that he stopped, or him that I waved a cheery 'thank you'.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by darkcape »

J11 seems to be the change point during my commutes, South of there the standard of driving gets very bad. Similarly on the M11 south of Stansted. Something about being near the capital that makes people act like idiots?

Whilst the standard of driving declines in the West Midlands I don't find people there as blatantly aggressive or dangerous as near London.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by M19 »

phil gollin wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 14:07
James wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 07:40 ....... Savvy junction users also know about the bit of signage that 'lies' which means quite a bit of Heathrow traffic undertakes people following the signs.
Yes, one of the problems is with regular commuters being aware of "clever" traffic engineers tricks (both on Motorways and dual carriageways). Whilst the majority follow the signs, the savvy cut-in or otherwise disrupt the flows (another traffic engineer disaster is bad expanding from one to two, or two to three lanes at junctions or roundabouts when the road narrows again afterwards). These CAN be good for allowing slow moving traffic to be overtaken, but with heavy traffic flows it can cause ridiculous racing and very poor behaviour.
.
A lot of signalised junctions are being designed like that, I suppose to maximise throughput. One in Aylesbury goes from one to three lanes and back to one. I bet that also encourages bad behavior.

Also roundabout exits that are marked with two narrow exit lanes that suddenly narrow to one with little merge space.

Maybe this is for another thread but who comes up with this stuff which just screams "bad design" even on the drawing board, and who allows this?
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by Euan »

darkcape wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 20:24 J11 seems to be the change point during my commutes, South of there the standard of driving gets very bad. Similarly on the M11 south of Stansted. Something about being near the capital that makes people act like idiots?

Whilst the standard of driving declines in the West Midlands I don't find people there as blatantly aggressive or dangerous as near London.
Luton and Stansted are both just about on the circle of 30 mile radius centred in London, so maybe this is roughly as far as the really noteworthy aggressive driving tends to reach. The equivalent on the A1(M) would probably be the driving deteriorating significantly from south of junction 12 at Stevenage. But it's also worth taking into account the fact that taxi drivers often seem to drive a bit carelessly while they are in a hurry and the M1 and M11 would probably be used by a lot of taxis taking people to and from Luton and Stansted Airports.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by owen b »

M19 wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 20:42
phil gollin wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 14:07
James wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 07:40 ....... Savvy junction users also know about the bit of signage that 'lies' which means quite a bit of Heathrow traffic undertakes people following the signs.
Yes, one of the problems is with regular commuters being aware of "clever" traffic engineers tricks (both on Motorways and dual carriageways). Whilst the majority follow the signs, the savvy cut-in or otherwise disrupt the flows (another traffic engineer disaster is bad expanding from one to two, or two to three lanes at junctions or roundabouts when the road narrows again afterwards). These CAN be good for allowing slow moving traffic to be overtaken, but with heavy traffic flows it can cause ridiculous racing and very poor behaviour.
.
A lot of signalised junctions are being designed like that, I suppose to maximise throughput. One in Aylesbury goes from one to three lanes and back to one. I bet that also encourages bad behavior.

Also roundabout exits that are marked with two narrow exit lanes that suddenly narrow to one with little merge space.

Maybe this is for another thread but who comes up with this stuff which just screams "bad design" even on the drawing board, and who allows this?
Sometimes in my experience the improvement in throughput outweighs the increase in numpty and inconsiderate behaviour at such junctions. For example, near where I live there's a signal controlled crossroads on the A6. The A6 briefly widens to two lanes each way at the lights. Yes, sometimes it causes aggravation where drivers using lane two to go straight on get blocked by right turning traffic also using lane two, or where they push back into the main flow of traffic where lane two ends. But if you didn't have lane two at the lights, there would be significantly less throughput and I think the congestion and queueing would be much worse.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by WHBM »

phil gollin wrote: Mon Nov 05, 2018 14:07 another traffic engineer disaster is bad expanding from one to two, or two to three lanes at junctions or roundabouts when the road narrows again afterwards. These CAN be good for allowing slow moving traffic to be overtaken, but with heavy traffic flows it can cause ridiculous racing and very poor behaviour.
This is a standard highway design technique, and is done not for overtaking or to provide a racing track, but for capacity through a signal-controlled junction.
Maybe this is for another thread but who comes up with this stuff which just screams "bad design" even on the drawing board, and who allows this?
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by Bryn666 »

Just don't do the kind of nonsense seen on the A12 where the MIDDLE lane of 3 is the one that ends.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by WHBM »

I think this was standard DfT (possibly back to DOE/MOT days) approach on London Trunk Routes (now TfL Red Routes). They've been there for decades.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6596417 ... 384!8i8192

Actually the best flow advantage is for the middle lane to end, with vehicles dividing equally to the lanes each side, as vehicles accelerate away and expand the gap between them. I have to say I have never encountered a sideswipe accident at such points
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by baroudeur »

owen b wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 22:50

Sometimes in my experience the improvement in throughput outweighs the increase in numpty and inconsiderate behaviour at such junctions. For example, near where I live there's a signal controlled crossroads on the A6. The A6 briefly widens to two lanes each way at the lights. Yes, sometimes it causes aggravation where drivers using lane two to go straight on get blocked by right turning traffic also using lane two, or where they push back into the main flow of traffic where lane two ends. But if you didn't have lane two at the lights, there would be significantly less throughput and I think the congestion and queueing would be much worse.
Austin Road/Kingsdown Avenue? Problem there is right turners not signalling until the very last moment then blocking the following straight on traffic.

I remember feeding the pigs after school at that location back in the 50's. :D No traffic signals then.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by owen b »

baroudeur wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 17:15
owen b wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 22:50

Sometimes in my experience the improvement in throughput outweighs the increase in numpty and inconsiderate behaviour at such junctions. For example, near where I live there's a signal controlled crossroads on the A6. The A6 briefly widens to two lanes each way at the lights. Yes, sometimes it causes aggravation where drivers using lane two to go straight on get blocked by right turning traffic also using lane two, or where they push back into the main flow of traffic where lane two ends. But if you didn't have lane two at the lights, there would be significantly less throughput and I think the congestion and queueing would be much worse.
Austin Road/Kingsdown Avenue? Problem there is right turners not signalling until the very last moment then blocking the following straight on traffic.

I remember feeding the pigs after school at that location back in the 50's. :D No traffic signals then.
Yes, exactly. Without giving away my exact address, I'm not far from there at all.

I wonder when the lights went in. I've been Luton since 1990 and I don't recall them not being there. The only significant changes on the A6 north of Luton town centre in my time that I recall are the roundabout going in at Riddy Lane (mid-90s I think) and the reduction of the limit from 40 to 30 from Riddy Lane to Montrose Avenue (maybe 5 years ago or so).
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by baroudeur »

owen b wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 18:25
baroudeur wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 17:15
owen b wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 22:50

Sometimes in my experience the improvement in throughput outweighs the increase in numpty and inconsiderate behaviour at such junctions. For example, near where I live there's a signal controlled crossroads on the A6. The A6 briefly widens to two lanes each way at the lights. Yes, sometimes it causes aggravation where drivers using lane two to go straight on get blocked by right turning traffic also using lane two, or where they push back into the main flow of traffic where lane two ends. But if you didn't have lane two at the lights, there would be significantly less throughput and I think the congestion and queueing would be much worse.
Austin Road/Kingsdown Avenue? Problem there is right turners not signalling until the very last moment then blocking the following straight on traffic.

I remember feeding the pigs after school at that location back in the 50's. :D No traffic signals then.
Yes, exactly. Without giving away my exact address, I'm not far from there at all.

I wonder when the lights went in. I've been Luton since 1990 and I don't recall them not being there. The only significant changes on the A6 north of Luton town centre in my time that I recall are the roundabout going in at Riddy Lane (mid-90s I think) and the reduction of the limit from 40 to 30 from Riddy Lane to Montrose Avenue (maybe 5 years ago or so).
I went to infants school in Trinity Road followed by Norton Road junior then later used to walk to school at Bradgers Hill down Austin Road which was a cinder track from Culverhouse Road to NBR with marshy fields on the river side and orchards on right. Riddy Lane had a sand pit where the school playing fields are now and SKF used to dump waste in it so plenty of ball bearings for catapults! Caught newts at the White Bridge from which Birdsfoot Lane was also a cinder track to Barton Road. I didn't leave Limbury until I married in 1961.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by Chris5156 »

WHBM wrote: Wed Nov 07, 2018 07:59 I think this was standard DfT (possibly back to DOE/MOT days) approach on London Trunk Routes (now TfL Red Routes). They've been there for decades.

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.6596417 ... 384!8i8192

Actually the best flow advantage is for the middle lane to end, with vehicles dividing equally to the lanes each side, as vehicles accelerate away and expand the gap between them. I have to say I have never encountered a sideswipe accident at such points
I realise this happens all over the country, but it's particularly prevalent in London. Since first arriving here from Leeds as a newly qualified driver I've always called these a "Deal With It", because it seemed to me back then that the message from the engineer was that three lanes needed to collapse in to two and it was up to the drivers to deal with that problem.

They can be intimidating if you're not used to London traffic, but generally it works perfectly well, and has a very definite effect on the volume of traffic that can get over the stop line.

I've mentioned this before, but there used to be a horrendous one on the A64 York Road heading into Leeds just after the Harehills Road traffic lights. The road was three lanes up to the lights, and three lanes again about a quarter of a mile after them, but had a bizarre two-lane section in between. After the lights, three lanes were marked for the length of perhaps three or four white lines, at which point all the markings ended, and about twenty yards further on a new centre line appeared, creating two lanes. Unlike the typical London "Deal With It", it really was a complete abdication of responsibility on the part of the designer and even as a child I remember thinking it was very confusing and unclear. It vanished in about 2000 as part of works to put a new bus lane in, which involved widening that short narrow section.
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Re: Standard of driving on M1 between Luton and M25

Post by B1040 »

darkcape wrote: Tue Nov 06, 2018 20:24 Similarly on the M11 south of Stansted. Something about being near the capital that makes people act like idiots?
I think there are several reasons.
Heading south on the D2M you have to sit in one of two lines of traffic, L2 usually moving slightly faster than L1. I suspect that a lot of people get in a lane and stay behind the person in front.
At Stansted, all the L1 traffic finds itself in L2. Some people will not notice or choose not to move over.
As someone else said, there are a lot of taxis in a hurry.
I also wonder about tired drivers coming out of the airport after a long flight wanting to move onwards to their destination.
There are possibly also drivers in unfamiliar hire cars some of whom are used to driving on the right.
There's perhaps also a subconscious "nearly there" feeling leading to relaxation even though there's a fair old way to go to London, let along points ownward.
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