Junction review after wrong-way crash

[Johnathan404]

The point is that there are many possible ways of improving this junction. With the greatest respect, your assumption that I had to be thinking of additional no-entry signs is an example of the blinkered thinking that is, sadly, all too prevalent in road safety circles these days.

I'm amused my exaggerated remark should be taken literally because it's actually the very opposite of the proactive response I call for.

There are two very different issues which should not be confused:

A. Failing to stop when met with hundreds of oncoming vehicles is a serious error of judgement. Whatever the excuse, if you are capable of reading a situation that badly then you must not be allowed to drive.
B. Our roads should be designed in such a way that it's impossible to accidentally get yourself into that situation anyway.

The second point is a pipe dream because human beings will always be capable of making a mistake you hadn't anticipated, but it shouldn't stop us from striving to make our roads as safe as possible, especially when the stakes are so high.

To turn to your remark about SABRE, I look at the active threads and I see:
M32 bus gate is being ignored; people suggest the signage be changed
Anecdotes about wrong-way incidents on the M40, A3 and A335; people suggest improvements to all three
New road studs are causing people to miss red lights; people suggest they are changed
Constant complaints about speed limits being ignored; people suggest re-engineering or reviewing the road
Various complaints about signage; people suggest the signage is made clearer
People are proposing changing the entire country's road numbering system because they find having an M1 and an A1(M) confusing!

....so I'm not sure where you get this 'closed minds' idea from, other than a few occasions where the inconvenience caused is so low that the cotton wool approach wouldn't be worth the cost, which is a factor that would have to be considered in the real world. Granted the roads would be a lot safer if every driver who frequently does not pay attention could be incinerated (nb this is not the same as decent drivers who make occasional mistakes), but I'm not sure many highway engineers would consider that anything more than a fantasy.

None of this changes the fact that you won't be able to prevent every mistake possible. You might like to aim for it, you might like to throw millions of resources at it, but it is foolish to think you'll ever achieve it for as long as humans are capable of reading situations wrongly.

[trickstat]

Indeed. On two occasions I have met cars going the wrong way up this slip road off the A3.

If more than one person makes the same mistake, surely that is evidence enough that there is something about the junction which is causing people to go wrong. Rather than simply dismissing people who make mistakes as eejuts who just don't care (a common error on this forum), the right approach is to try to work out what is causing people to make mistakes, and fix that.

Actually, I do think there is something wrong with that roundabout, however, it's not the slip road that's the issue.

I've lived and driven in this area for 28 years, and this is on my main route for any long distance journey so I've seen a lot of traffic there. The problem is that when drivers from the south (Godalming) approach this roundabout, there are no useful advance direction signs. The only signs are on the roundabout itself:

https://goo.gl/maps/YzjA4SQy3kx

This is one of the few main routes out of the Godalming area and I suspect many drivers are just wanting to go on the A3, either towards London or Portsmouth. They hit this junction and have a second or two to decide. Unless they know the local area, this sign does not tell them. In their head, if they picture a map, they know that if they want to go in the London direction they must "go right" somewhere.

So, I see many many cars get to the roundabout, go right, see the no entry signs on the slip road and carry on right round (sometimes more than once) and then head off in the correct direction. It only takes a tiny fraction of these drivers to be so distracted that they cause a problem.

I think that there should be a direction sign in advance of the roundabout as well as at it and it should say something like "A3 (All Directions)".

(Note: I am 99% certain that there is no advance sign but I could be wrong. I've checked on Street View and cannot find one. If it's there, it's well hidden.)

I agree that unless you know for certain that Guildford is nearer London than Godalming that there is a higher than acceptable risk of someone attempting to turn right here.

[Graham]

....so I'm not sure where you get this 'closed minds' idea from,

My comments do not refer only to SABRE : I am making a more general comment about the state of road safety management in the UK as a whole. There are plenty of people on SABRE who make constructive comments - just look at BlackfordHill's recent post, for example, but there are also plenty of people who seem to me have closed minds (I counted several such posts in this thread alone).

I have just returned from a week's driving in Switzerland. This is a country that has pretty draconian laws for misdemeanors, and is actively trying to get people off the roads and onto public transport, but I found driving there (as I always do) an absolute breeze compared to driving in the UK. For example, in Switzerland, speed limits always make sense, and they are clearly signposted. This contrasts with the UK, where more and more restrictions and speed limits are being set for ideological reasons (rather than having anything to do with road safety), and the signage often appears to be deliberately placed to maximise the likelihood of a driver failing to see it. Just yesterday, I pulled up at a red light at a signalised roundabout, and as I was waiting I realised that there was a circular sign hidden from view by my rear view mirror. I had to crane my neck to see it - it was a change to the speed limit. This is an example of a common phenomenon these days - speed limit signs are placed at the approach to roundabouts (when drivers are likely to be concentrating on which lane they need to be in, and watching for traffic lights to change) rather than on the exits, where they would be easily seen. There is a type of contributor to SABRE who will look at an image on google maps from the comfort of their armchair and say "that roadsign is clearly visible - only a numpty could miss it" without realising why it might be an issue in real life.

My general point remains - if many people are making the same mistake, then more people will continue to make that mistake unless something is done about it. Which part of this statement do you disagree with?

[KeithW]

I have just returned from a week's driving in Switzerland. This is a country that has pretty draconian laws for misdemeanors, and is actively trying to get people off the roads and onto public transport, but I found driving there (as I always do) an absolute breeze compared to driving in the UK. For example, in Switzerland, speed limits always make sense, and they are clearly signposted.

As I recall Swiss speed limits are
Built up Area - 50 km/h
Rural Single Carriage Roads - 80 km/h
Expressways - 100 km/h
Motorways - 120 km/h

Not very different from the UK if anything on non motorway roads rather stricter. I do recall the speed limit in Lauterbrunnen is 40 km/h so they do post lower speed limits where they consider it necessary.

Speed Cameras are frequent and detectors are illegal. Driving is usually to a pretty good standard and the safety level is pretty much at the same level as the UK. Having driven in Switzerland in summer I cant say that driving was that much better than driving in the UK outside the SE of England. As for it being pleasant to drive in rural areas that is true but Geneva and Zurich have some of the most congested roads in Europe and the poor air quality that goes with it.

[Fenlander]

And then there's the deliberate wrong way driving carried out by ordinary drivers. I came across it a few years ago at M1 J35A southbound entry slip. I was about to join via this slip. Unfortunately there'd been an accident somewhere south of the junction and traffic was standing in all lanes. So one eejut decided he'd turn off the mainline and head up the entry slip to avoid being delayed. When one eejut does it, other eejuts decide to follow.

Imagine my delight to meet a line of cars coming towards me just as I left the roundabout at the top of the slip.

Like these 86 (yes, Eighty-Six) motorists who are all being fined by Essex Police for going the wrong way after the M11 was blocked...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-46048754

I didnt know that:-

a. You could send in dash cam footage
b. They would do anything with it
c. It was evidential

Never underestimate the zeal with which the additional parts of the police will work when they have the sniff of a FPN. If all 86 motorists rejected the FPNs in favour of court appearances the police, the courts, the CPS, the witnesses who sent in the dashcam footage and the motorists would all be tied up for months while it was all dragged through the system. There are many points during that process that the cases could go wrong, mostly around the use of the footage as evidence without a witness to back it up, not all would want to do that. The reality though is that the motorists will get their letters, know that fighting it could lead to far worse sanctions and cough up at the first, cheapest possibility. That then becomes an easy 'win' for all sides.

[Pendlemac]

Just yesterday, I pulled up at a red light at a signalised roundabout, and as I was waiting I realised that there was a circular sign hidden from view by my rear view mirror. I had to crane my neck to see it - it was a change to the speed limit. This is an example of a common phenomenon these days - speed limit signs are placed at the approach to roundabouts (when drivers are likely to be concentrating on which lane they need to be in, and watching for traffic lights to change) rather than on the exits, where they would be easily seen.

Given that the sign is probably there because the roundabout has a different limit to the approach road it can't be on the exit.

[KeithW]

Just yesterday, I pulled up at a red light at a signalised roundabout, and as I was waiting I realised that there was a circular sign hidden from view by my rear view mirror. I had to crane my neck to see it - it was a change to the speed limit. This is an example of a common phenomenon these days - speed limit signs are placed at the approach to roundabouts (when drivers are likely to be concentrating on which lane they need to be in, and watching for traffic lights to change) rather than on the exits, where they would be easily seen.

Given that the sign is probably there because the roundabout has a different limit to the approach road it can't be on the exit.

I read this post as meaning that the sign was concealed by the rear view mirror and that it had not been noticed when approaching the roundabout. Presumably had the lights been green it would not have been noticed either. It has always been quite common to reduce speed limits on the approach to roundabouts for obvious reasons including the possibility of queuing traffic.

[doebag]

There's an item on Jeremy Vine Radio 2 in today's show about 'wrong way drivers'

[Big L]

There's an item on Jeremy Vine Radio 2 in today's show about 'wrong way drivers'

Presumably featuring two guests, one of which had a family member killed this morning and the other who is absolutely in favour of driving the wrong way on motorways. Because there is never any middle ground on that show.

[Euan]

On Saturday there was a wrong-way crash on the A725 in East Kilbride which killed a motorcyclist after a car going the wrong way crashed into him:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-46162882

Later on that day, a pensioner was the victim of another fatal wrong-way crash on the A1 near Haddington:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-46165804

[KeithW]

On Saturday there was a wrong-way crash on the A725 in East Kilbride which killed a motorcyclist after a car going the wrong way crashed into him:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-46162882

Later on that day, a pensioner was the victim of another fatal wrong-way crash on the A1 near Haddington:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... e-46165804

The driver arrested in the East Kilbride case was drunk.
https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/news/s ... orcyclist/

[Arcuarius]

There's an item on Jeremy Vine Radio 2 in today's show about 'wrong way drivers'

Presumably featuring two guests, one of which had a family member killed this morning and the other who is absolutely in favour of driving the wrong way on motorways. Because there is never any middle ground on that show.

Nah, the second one will probably claim that it's all something to do with European drivers (cf. right turn arrows on the approach to roundabouts). That show is, after all, basically Daily Heil FM.

[Euan]

Nah, the second one will probably claim that it's all something to do with European drivers (cf. right turn arrows on the approach to roundabouts). That show is, after all, basically Daily Heil FM.

According to a survey estimate from last year, around 200000 UK drivers a year unintentionally drive on the wrong side of the road while driving in Spain. Without a doubt this figure will be much higher across the entire European mainland, but it would be interesting to see how similar this proportion is to the proportion of continental drivers using the wrong side of the road in the UK. In the UK there are some signs that come few and far between reminding drivers to drive on the left. Sometimes they can appear in the most unexpected of places - such as on the A87 at Loch Cluanie.

[Robert Kilcoyne]

In the UK there are some signs that come few and far between reminding drivers to drive on the left. Sometimes they can appear in the most unexpected of places - such as on the A87 at Loch Cluanie.

I remember seeing these signs as I left the car park at Carter Bar on the A68. This Google Streetview image of the sign at Carter Bar is from 2011:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.35364 ... 6656?hl=en

[Robert Kilcoyne]

A similar sign at the exit from the car park near Urquhart Castle on the A82:-
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@57.32387 ... 6656?hl=en

[Chris5156]

I remember seeing these signs as I left the car park at Carter Bar on the A68. This Google Streetview image of the sign at Carter Bar is from 2011:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.35364 ... 6656?hl=en

Bit of a shame there's - I think - two errors in the translations there. They missed a D from "izquierda", and I think the German should be "fahren".

[mikehindsonevans]

I remember seeing these signs as I left the car park at Carter Bar on the A68. This Google Streetview image of the sign at Carter Bar is from 2011:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.35364 ... 6656?hl=en

Bit of a shame there's - I think - two errors in the translations there. They missed a D from "izquierda", and I think the German should be "fahren".

Good spot sir! Top of class, Scooby-snack, medal!
I wonder - are these oddly-chosen locations triggered by events, or did someone have money left in the signage budget at the end of March?

[Octaviadriver]

I remember seeing these signs as I left the car park at Carter Bar on the A68. This Google Streetview image of the sign at Carter Bar is from 2011:-

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.35364 ... 6656?hl=en

Bit of a shame there's - I think - two errors in the translations there. They missed a D from "izquierda", and I think the German should be "fahren".

Good spot sir! Top of class, Scooby-snack, medal!
I wonder - are these oddly-chosen locations triggered by events, or did someone have money left in the signage budget at the end of March?

I think that accidents where drivers used to driving on the right forget to drive on the left occur more often where the road is quiet and after a stop. When there's other traffic around, you automatically follow on the correct side of the road or if you're driving and the road becomes empty, you stay on the correct side of the road.

We've had one or two in the Brecon area over the years where drivers have pulled out of laybys after a stop and have driven on the right and been involved in a nasty head-on collision.

[Berk]

It’s logical, and makes sense, but I’m still not sure why it happens.

Then again, I sometimes used to choose the wrong gear by mistake (more when I was learning), probably because they sit close to each other (first, third/second, fourth).

It’s noticeable how Australia and New Zealand also remind drivers that they drive on the left, even though it’s quite common in Asia.

[Euan]

Roughly two thirds of the world's population live in countries which drive on the right, so it is probably more of a priority for countries which drive on the left to acknowledge so on road signs for international drivers. It is perfectly simple to see why these signs would be needed in places like Dover or Portsmouth, but the thing that makes signs such as the ones at Carter Bar and Urquhart Castle stand out is that such signs do not seem to be set up in a regular or routine pattern as part of signage standards and instead just occasionally appear here and there. The signs away from entry ports really should be seen far more frequently rather than just popping up in rare instances.