Junction review after wrong-way crash

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Ambosc79
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Ambosc79 »

c2R wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:58
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:50
c2R wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:25 I've seen (and reported to the police) someone turn left here before... I had to re-watch the dashcam footage to check I wasn't mis-remembering what my eyes saw in front of me. The arrow sort of points you down there, but the deflection is rather tight...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7994269 ... 312!8i6656
That is just bad. Not only do 2 separate road marking suggest you should turn but there is an absence of a No Entry sign !
I don't think any of the junctions on this stretch of the A10 have no entry signs to indicate you shouldn't turn down them... Looking at GSV, most roads of a similar standard do, but I don't ever recall there being any on the A10 at any of the junctions...
Looking at that junction on maps (don't know the area), it seems to me that the B1502 doesn't need to be plugged into that junction at all as Great Amwell is much nearer to, and more easily reached from, the next junction south on the A10? It could just run underneath that huge roundabout. This seemingly would also create a useful cut through from Hertford to the eastern A414 that avoided putting such traffic on the A10 or its junctions at all.
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c2R
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by c2R »

Ambosc79 wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:06
c2R wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:58
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:50

That is just bad. Not only do 2 separate road marking suggest you should turn but there is an absence of a No Entry sign !
I don't think any of the junctions on this stretch of the A10 have no entry signs to indicate you shouldn't turn down them... Looking at GSV, most roads of a similar standard do, but I don't ever recall there being any on the A10 at any of the junctions...
Looking at that junction on maps (don't know the area), it seems to me that the B1502 doesn't need to be plugged into that junction at all as Great Amwell is much nearer to, and more easily reached from, the next junction south on the A10? It could just run underneath that huge roundabout. This seemingly would also create a useful cut through from Hertford to the eastern A414 that avoided putting such traffic on the A10 or its junctions at all.
At peak hours the area is heavily congested - I think what you suggest is a non starter as it would increase traffic on the overloaded Amwell Roundabout to the south and of local traffic on the A10 between the two junctions. It's sort of solving a problem that doesn't exist in a very expensive way!
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Micro The Maniac »

scragend wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 13:20 The Australians have a similar approach, but even more explicit. Not only do they tell you that you're going the wrong way, they also tell you what you need to do about it!
In the UK, we have very large grey signs, with no writing or pictures on them

These conveniently provide space on the back for junction and distance information for traffic going the right way!
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Bryn666 »

wrinkly wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 14:03 Another fatal wrong-way incident

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46071139
You have to deliberately enter the motorway on the wrong side in most cases. Very very few genuinely confusing slip roads exist.

Without casting aspersions this is just more evidence that driving standards are going very wrong somewhere.

Perhaps tackling the cause of that would be better than just sticking up signs.
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Graham
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Graham »

BlackfordHill wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:53
Indeed. On two occasions I have met cars going the wrong way up this slip road off the A3.
If more than one person makes the same mistake, surely that is evidence enough that there is something about the junction which is causing people to go wrong. Rather than simply dismissing people who make mistakes as eejuts who just don't care (a common error on this forum), the right approach is to try to work out what is causing people to make mistakes, and fix that.
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Euan
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Euan »

Bryn666 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 17:10
wrinkly wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 14:03 Another fatal wrong-way incident

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46071139
You have to deliberately enter the motorway on the wrong side in most cases. Very very few genuinely confusing slip roads exist.

Without casting aspersions this is just more evidence that driving standards are going very wrong somewhere.

Perhaps tackling the cause of that would be better than just sticking up signs.
Surely in many cases, entering a motorway the wrong way will involve having to find a way around a queue of cars stacked up on the slipway? This might not apply while junctions are less busy and hence have little in the way of queues, so maybe the driver incorrectly negotiated one of the junctions while it was quiet.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by AndyB »

Looking at the road layouts of junctions 41, 42 and 43 of the A1(M), you would have to be doing something pretty special to join the motorway in the wrong direction. Only way I can see is going the wrong way round one or both roundabouts of the dumbbell at J42 - the angle the slip roads hit the eastern roundabout is so acute that it would be at best incredibly difficult to make it onto the wrong slip road without reducing to almost a stop.

We'll never know what the driver was thinking, but to have got where he did he would have ignored so many round signs with half way decent sighting that it's not reasonable to blame the layout.
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Johnathan404
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Johnathan404 »

Graham wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 18:16 If more than one person makes the same mistake, surely that is evidence enough that there is something about the junction which is causing people to go wrong. Rather than simply dismissing people who make mistakes as eejuts who just don't care (a common error on this forum), the right approach is to try to work out what is causing people to make mistakes, and fix that.
Wrong-way incidents are one of the most serious events that can happen on the roads, and deserve to be taken seriously for precisely that reason.

However, don't kid yourself that if somebody didn't notice five no entry signs, several painted arrows, the fact all the motorway signs were facing the wrong way and the fact hundreds of vehicles were charging towards them... that an additional no entry sign would have caused them to realise their error. To stop an incident like that you are in the territory of suggesting a giant wall rise up and stop them, which may well be what we need to investigate.

The best practice is, as always, in the middle. You can suggest signage and layout improvements (like the pretty urgent ones suggested for the M40), but sometimes you will need to accept improved signage would not have prevented any of these tragic accidents.

edited for typo
Last edited by Johnathan404 on Sun Nov 04, 2018 15:06, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Conekicker »

And then there's the deliberate wrong way driving carried out by ordinary drivers. I came across it a few years ago at M1 J35A southbound entry slip. I was about to join via this slip. Unfortunately there'd been an accident somewhere south of the junction and traffic was standing in all lanes. So one eejut decided he'd turn off the mainline and head up the entry slip to avoid being delayed. When one eejut does it, other eejuts decide to follow.

Imagine my delight to meet a line of cars coming towards me just as I left the roundabout at the top of the slip.
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Big Nick
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Big Nick »

Conekicker wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 21:34 And then there's the deliberate wrong way driving carried out by ordinary drivers. I came across it a few years ago at M1 J35A southbound entry slip. I was about to join via this slip. Unfortunately there'd been an accident somewhere south of the junction and traffic was standing in all lanes. So one eejut decided he'd turn off the mainline and head up the entry slip to avoid being delayed. When one eejut does it, other eejuts decide to follow.

Imagine my delight to meet a line of cars coming towards me just as I left the roundabout at the top of the slip.
Like these 86 (yes, Eighty-Six) motorists who are all being fined by Essex Police for going the wrong way after the M11 was blocked...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-46048754
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Euan
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Euan »

Essex Police must have fined a total of £8,600 during the incident if they fined each car driver £100 for going the wrong way.

Assuming the impatient drivers were still driving on the left after turning, that would have left them outside i.e. the fast side of the road. I wonder how drivers travelling in different directions dealt with sharing the same carriageway of the D3M width M11 without crashing - the most likely scenario that I can think of would probably just be the impatient drivers using the outside (fast) lane only and not invading the middle lane which could even have forced drivers going the right way onto the hard shoulder in order to maintain a flow of two lanes in each direction.

This is, of course, assuming that the 86 drivers did not manage to find a way off the motorway safely before reaching the end of what may have been a long tailback of cars facing the other way. However the only way off the motorway would have been via junctions, and wouldn't they have had to have crossed traffic going in the opposite direction to get onto the sliproad? Quite astonishing.
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trickstat
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by trickstat »

It seems wrong that they will only be getting 3 points on their licence for what is, at the very least, careless driving.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by ais523 »

If you were intentionally driving in the wrong direction, you'd presumably use the hard shoulder. That would have to be safer than trying to do it in a running lane (and also makes it clear what you'd do when you get to a junction).

Even people who join a motorway going in the wrong direction due to being drunk often end up on the hard shoulder for some reason, presumably because being too drunk to know which way you're meant to be going is not drunk enough to want to try to cross several lanes of oncoming traffic when you appear to have arrived on the wrong side of the road.

(That said, the only time I've seen a wrong-way motorist myself was on the dual-carriageway section of the B4121. They were in the lane next to the central reservation, i.e. the "left-hand lane" from their point of view. The bus I was on sounded the horn repeatedly to try to convey the message that something was wrong, and the driver crossed to the correct side of the road at the next central reservation gap, so all ended well. Still, the road's speed limit is 40mph, so there was a potential for a crash with 80mph closing speed; even on B roads, wrong-way incidents can be dangerous, and they don't (usually?) have hard shoulders to allow for slack in the case where something goes badly wrong.)
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by KeithW »

ais523 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 23:27 If you were intentionally driving in the wrong direction, you'd presumably use the hard shoulder. That would have to be safer than trying to do it in a running lane (and also makes it clear what you'd do when you get to a junction).

Even people who join a motorway going in the wrong direction due to being drunk often end up on the hard shoulder for some reason, presumably because being too drunk to know which way you're meant to be going is not drunk enough to want to try to cross several lanes of oncoming traffic when you appear to have arrived on the wrong side of the road.

(That said, the only time I've seen a wrong-way motorist myself was on the dual-carriageway section of the B4121. They were in the lane next to the central reservation, i.e. the "left-hand lane" from their point of view. The bus I was on sounded the horn repeatedly to try to convey the message that something was wrong, and the driver crossed to the correct side of the road at the next central reservation gap, so all ended well. Still, the road's speed limit is 40mph, so there was a potential for a crash with 80mph closing speed; even on B roads, wrong-way incidents can be dangerous, and they don't (usually?) have hard shoulders to allow for slack in the case where something goes badly wrong.)
I have seen two.

The first was rank stupidity of the highest order. In early summer 1972 we were driving up the M6 from Penrith to Carlisle and about 3 miles north of Penrith came across a Morris 1000 Traveller stopped on the hard shoulder facing the wrong way with mum dad and 2 kids having set up a picnic table and chairs having lunch ! They must have driven at least 15 miles the wrong way down a fortunately quiet M6. I never did hear the outcome but did see a patrol car go past southbound in the correct direction with lights and siren going so the odds are he was heading towards them.

The second was much more understandable and the driver realised her mistake on reaching the bottom of the slip road. It was just after the A428 had been dualled and she was trying to get to Elsworth having driven from Hardwick on the old road which as acting as a LAR. She got it wrong and ended up on the off slip here.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/place/Cam ... 2097?hl=en

The angle is quite acute but the roundabout is wide and she managed it.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.22559 ... 6656?hl=en

As soon as she got to the bottom of the slip she realised what had happened , pulled over as far as she could and called 999. I believe she got the mother of all ticking offs but was not prosecuted.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Stevie D »

wrinkly wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 14:03Another fatal wrong-way incident

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-46071139
There are no junctions near there where you could plausibly have gone down the wrong slip road accidentally. The closest I can think of would be J42, where I suppose someone coming from A63 Selby could think "I need to turn right onto A1(M) North" and turn right at the first roundabout, but it's a sharp angle there and you couldn't possibly do that without knowing something was wrong – and the article mentions Ferrybridge, which suggests it was probably south of J42. With this one unusually being a younger driver, you've got to wonder whether it was deliberate or some kind of psychotic episode.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Graham »

Johnathan404 wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 19:32
However, don't kid yourself that if somebody didn't notice five no entry signs, several painted arrows, the fact all the motorway signs were facing the wrong way and the fact hundreds of vehicles were charging towards them... that an additional no entry sign would have caused them to realise their error. To stop an incident like that you are in the territory of suggesting a giant wall rise up and stop them, which may well be what we need to investigate.
Maybe, but where did I say that the solution was an additional no entry sign?

The big problem here is that TPTB have become obsessed with the idea that the only way to improve road safety is via ruthless enforcement, and that shines through in this forum where many contributors have a black-and-white attitude that drivers are divided into competent drivers on the one hand, and eejuts and numpties on the other, and the way to make the roads safer is to get the eejuts and numpties off the road.

I believe that the truth is somewhat different; we are all human, and that means we are all capable of making mistakes. If many people are making the same mistake, then you can prosecute them as much as you like, but it won't stop someone else from making the same mistake.

There is a role for enforcement, of course, but IMHO the right approach when multiple people are making the same mistake is to work with those people to find out why they went wrong. This is a constructive and proactive approach, and I suggest it would be far, far more successful than blindly prosecuting the people who go wrong.

This is an idea that would not occur to most people on this forum, as they assume that anyone who makes a mistake is a numpty who would not be able to explain why they went wrong. My opinion is that this is utter nonsense, and someone who has made a mistake this severe would actually be extremely able - and willing - to help prevent other people making the same mistake.

Returning to the B3000 roundabout, I would imagine that the problem lies with the two minor accesses, one either side of the no-entry slip road. Maybe drivers are thinking that the two no-entry signs apply to the minor accesses. Maybe drivers are getting confusing messages from their Sat-Navs. Maybe the junction could be improved by putting a direction sign for the B3000 pointing away from the access where drivers are going wrong. Who knows what the problem is, unless someone asks the people who went wrong?

The point is that there are many possible ways of improving this junction. With the greatest respect, your assumption that I had to be thinking of additional no-entry signs is an example of the blinkered thinking that is, sadly, all too prevalent in road safety circles these days.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by XC70 »

Big Nick wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 21:50
Conekicker wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 21:34 And then there's the deliberate wrong way driving carried out by ordinary drivers. I came across it a few years ago at M1 J35A southbound entry slip. I was about to join via this slip. Unfortunately there'd been an accident somewhere south of the junction and traffic was standing in all lanes. So one eejut decided he'd turn off the mainline and head up the entry slip to avoid being delayed. When one eejut does it, other eejuts decide to follow.

Imagine my delight to meet a line of cars coming towards me just as I left the roundabout at the top of the slip.
Like these 86 (yes, Eighty-Six) motorists who are all being fined by Essex Police for going the wrong way after the M11 was blocked...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-46048754
I didnt know that:-

a. You could send in dash cam footage
b. They would do anything with it
c. It was evidential
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by AndyB »

Anybody can report a road traffic offence and make a statement about it to police. Not much will happen unless there is corroborating evidence, such as a video.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by BlackfordHill »

Graham wrote: Fri Nov 02, 2018 18:16
BlackfordHill wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:53
Indeed. On two occasions I have met cars going the wrong way up this slip road off the A3.
If more than one person makes the same mistake, surely that is evidence enough that there is something about the junction which is causing people to go wrong. Rather than simply dismissing people who make mistakes as eejuts who just don't care (a common error on this forum), the right approach is to try to work out what is causing people to make mistakes, and fix that.
Actually, I do think there is something wrong with that roundabout, however, it's not the slip road that's the issue.

I've lived and driven in this area for 28 years, and this is on my main route for any long distance journey so I've seen a lot of traffic there. The problem is that when drivers from the south (Godalming) approach this roundabout, there are no useful advance direction signs. The only signs are on the roundabout itself:

https://goo.gl/maps/YzjA4SQy3kx

This is one of the few main routes out of the Godalming area and I suspect many drivers are just wanting to go on the A3, either towards London or Portsmouth. They hit this junction and have a second or two to decide. Unless they know the local area, this sign does not tell them. In their head, if they picture a map, they know that if they want to go in the London direction they must "go right" somewhere.

So, I see many many cars get to the roundabout, go right, see the no entry signs on the slip road and carry on right round (sometimes more than once) and then head off in the correct direction. It only takes a tiny fraction of these drivers to be so distracted that they cause a problem.

I think that there should be a direction sign in advance of the roundabout as well as at it and it should say something like "A3 (All Directions)".

(Note: I am 99% certain that there is no advance sign but I could be wrong. I've checked on Street View and cannot find one. If it's there, it's well hidden.)
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