Junction review after wrong-way crash

[Helvellyn]

Given J25 and J27 provide all the same movements it does make you wonder why the scissors exist at all; although granted it's useful for avoiding the double J25 roundabouts.

That's what I use it for rather than the roundabouts, but I take your point that it doesn't really add anything.

[Euan]

I still endorse the Irish approach - big red oblong signs saying "WRONG WAY" in white at the "wrong" entrance to dual carriageways. They are big and simple - and very effective: and since they are a country in the EU, it obviously doesn't matter that the sign is only in English - the world's most-used language.

The Australians have a similar approach, but even more explicit. Not only do they tell you that you're going the wrong way, they also tell you what you need to do about it!


wrongwaygoback.jpg

It would be interesting to see how effective signs like that actually are at preventing accidents. Presumably larger signs will be more difficult to ignore, but then there are numerous other cases of seemingly unavoidable instructions just being blindly missed. If too many people aren't focused enough to notice the signs then some people may begin to question whether the costs involved in erecting the signs are justified. It probably goes without saying, but watching the signs carefully must be emphasised just as much as watching the road.

[Herned]

I personally want to be aware enough to know myself when the time to quit comes but some/many won't want to give up so instantly.

The thing is that reaction times and general awareness start getting worse very slowly that most people are completely unaware of it happening to them. I doubt there are many older drivers who are driving when they know they shouldn't be

[Skinnylew]

I would guess all these junctions mentioned have had recorded instances of wrong way mistakes being made.

I only have experiences of one: A3 Queen Elizabeth Country Park
North bound
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96433 ... 312!8i6656[/gmap]
South Bound
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96089 ... 384!8i8192[/gmap]
not in the latest A3 2018 pic the no entry seems to be missing
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96089 ... 384!8i8192[/gmap]

These are no more than glorified farm entrances with next to no slip road, sharp hairpin turns and no real road markings.

[andrewwoods]

Curiously the reported list doesn’t include the M40!

BBC Oxford news says they’re explicitly looking at the M40 as well as that list.
They also had eye-witnesses who saw the caravan on the M40 by junction 8

Andrew

[Berk]

I personally want to be aware enough to know myself when the time to quit comes but some/many won't want to give up so instantly.

The thing is that reaction times and general awareness start getting worse very slowly that most people are completely unaware of it happening to them. I doubt there are many older drivers who are driving when they know they shouldn't be

It’s not even the elderly, though. When I’ve been on the road, I’ve been scared by the reaction times of some drivers way below the age of 80.

And careless (rather than aggressive) tailgating - see that all the time.

[trickstat]

I would guess all these junctions mentioned have had recorded instances of wrong way mistakes being made.

I only have experiences of one: A3 Queen Elizabeth Country Park
North bound
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96433 ... 312!8i6656[/gmap]
South Bound
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96089 ... 384!8i8192[/gmap]
not in the latest A3 2018 pic the no entry seems to be missing
[gmap]https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@50.96089 ... 384!8i8192[/gmap]

These are no more than glorified farm entrances with next to no slip road, sharp hairpin turns and no real road markings.

I think a sign showing both northerly and southerly destinations being to the left would be helpful or perhaps just "all routes".

[Stevie D]

I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?

[SouthWest Philip]

I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?

Could make driving through roadwork contraflows interesting with the SatNav screaming at you!

[trickstat]

I suspect an issue with some of the junctions that are prone to these incidents is disorientation or, in some, a lack of orientation. A simple roundabout above or below the dual carriageway tends to not have these issues (I know they can have other shortcomings!).

A couple of years ago I went to the Bluewater Shopping Centre for the first time. I don't think there is much of a danger of someone going the wrong way up a carriageway (good signage?) but as I joined the A2 my sense of direction was telling me that I was heading towards the M2 and deepest Kent rather than the M25 and SE London that the signs indicated.

[Halmyre]

A few weeks ago I was driving north out of Grasmere; there's a short section of dual-carriageway at Dunmail Raise where the carriageways are widely separated, and a camper van headed up the wrong carriageway (oblivious to the big blue keep left arrow). He stopped halfway along, still facing the wrong way in the outside lane.

A few miles further on there's an even longer section of separated carriageways, with a series of blind bends - I hate to think what might have happened if he'd gone wrong there...

[KeithW]

I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?

Wrong way incidents are not exactly unknown at the other end of the age spectrum with twockers, in fact I suspect they are much more common from a Google search, This one didnt get much prominence on yesterdays news.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-46024097

or this
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... n-10045393

And just about a year ago we were discussing this case
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... gham-crash

Most SatNavs will explicitly tell you which exit to take at a junction, I suspect that with the TomTom products you would get the standard off track message.
'Turn around where possible' or words to that effect.

[ANiceEnglishman]

I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?

Wrong way incidents are not exactly unknown at the other end of the age spectrum with twockers, in fact I suspect they are much more common from a Google search, This one didnt get much prominence on yesterdays news.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-46024097

or this
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... n-10045393

And just about a year ago we were discussing this case
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... gham-crash

Most SatNavs will explicitly tell you which exit to take at a junction, I suspect that with the TomTom products you would get the standard off track message.
'Turn around where possible' or words to that effect.

I've probably posted before about drivers listening to their SatNavs instead of reading signs. This must be a particular problem where road layouts have changed but their devices have not yet been updated.

[KeithW]

I was doing a bit of surfing last night and came upon a number of articles including this snippet

The Rhode Island road authority has installed technology which detects vehicles heading down a slip road the wrong way and LED signs start flashing at them. If they don’t stop, the police are notified and electronic messages warn drivers coming in the correct direction that there is a ‘wrong way’ vehicle ahead.

and this, the main study paper may be downloaded as a pdf

This study collected and analyzed the wrong-way crashes data for a six-year time period, from 2004 to 2009, on Illinois freeways. The objective of the study was to characterize the statistical characteristics of wrong-way crashes from these three aspects: crash, vehicle, and person. The temporal distributions, geographical distribution, roadway characteristics, and crash characteristics were analyzed for wrong-way crashes. The wrong-way driver demographic information, driver physical condition, and driver injury severity were analyzed for wrong-way drivers. The vehicle characteristics, vehicle operation, and collision results were analyzed for wrong-way driving vehicles.

General statistical characteristics of wrong-way crashes were analyzed, and the findings revealed that a large proportion of wrong-way crashes occurred during the weekend from midnight to 5 a.m. Approximately 80 percent of wrong-way crashes were located in urban areas. Nearly 70 percent of wrong-way vehicles were passenger cars. Approximately 60% of wrong-way drivers were driving under the influence (DUI). Of those, nearly 50% were confirmed to be impaired by alcohol, about 5% were impaired by drugs, and more than 3% had been drinking.

Wrong-way entry points were analyzed for different interchange types as well. Compressed diamond interchanges, SPUI, partial cloverleaf interchanges, and freeway feeders had the highest wrong-way crash rates (wrong-way crashes per 100 interchanges per year). The contribution of this study was a new method to predict the possible wrong-way entry points and rank the high-frequency crash locations for field reviews based on the number of recorded or estimated wrong-way freeway entries.

What I found interesting here was that certain types of interchange seemed much more risky than others

Compressed Diamond intersections make up only 7.64% of interchanges but were the entry point for over 25% of incidents
Diamond Interchanges make up 42% of interchanges and were the entry point for 32% of incidents
Next in order of risk were Partial Cloverleaf and Cloverleaf

Note that as many one way crash drivers do not survive 2 possible entry points are considered

Driving under the influence of Drink or Drugs was also a major factor when it came to the severity of wrong way incidents. In the case of the 20 drivers killed 11 were DUI and 5 were under the influence of drugs. It seems that most sober folk realise they have screwed up and try and avoid or minimise the risks of crash

[KeithW]

I've probably posted before about drivers listening to their SatNavs instead of reading signs. This must be a particular problem where road layouts have changed but their devices have not yet been updated.

Yes and the results can be surreal. When the Darrington to Hook Moor section of the A1(M) opened my sat nav kept telling me to get back on the road insisting that I turn onto some country lane back to the A1

[mikehindsonevans]

I still endorse the Irish approach - big red oblong signs saying "WRONG WAY" in white at the "wrong" entrance to dual carriageways. They are big and simple - and very effective: and since they are a country in the EU, it obviously doesn't matter that the sign is only in English - the world's most-used language.

The Australians have a similar approach, but even more explicit. Not only do they tell you that you're going the wrong way, they also tell you what you need to do about it!


wrongwaygoback.jpg

It would be interesting to see how effective signs like that actually are at preventing accidents. Presumably larger signs will be more difficult to ignore, but then there are numerous other cases of seemingly unavoidable instructions just being blindly missed. If too many people aren't focused enough to notice the signs then some people may begin to question whether the costs involved in erecting the signs are justified. It probably goes without saying, but watching the signs carefully must be emphasised just as much as watching the road.

Euan, I am uncertain as to the point that you are making - do we "do nothing and give up and shrug our shoulders" or do we "try at least to reduce the obvious devastation which occurs when someone gets it massively wrong - which might be intercepted by a fairly cheap sign"?

Self-evidently after the recent M40 carnage, I would posit that: "The absence of any "wrong way - go back" signage certainly did nothing to prevent the resulting carnage".

This country learns from disasters and takes action to try to prevent a recurrence - I recall the policy to raise central reservation barriers after road re-surfacing, following a crossover (technically a "leap-over") on the M4 back in the 1980s.

[Ruperts Trooper]

The Australians have a similar approach, but even more explicit. Not only do they tell you that you're going the wrong way, they also tell you what you need to do about it!


wrongwaygoback.jpg

It would be interesting to see how effective signs like that actually are at preventing accidents. Presumably larger signs will be more difficult to ignore, but then there are numerous other cases of seemingly unavoidable instructions just being blindly missed. If too many people aren't focused enough to notice the signs then some people may begin to question whether the costs involved in erecting the signs are justified. It probably goes without saying, but watching the signs carefully must be emphasised just as much as watching the road.

Euan, I am uncertain as to the point that you are making - do we "do nothing and give up and shrug our shoulders" or do we "try at least to reduce the obvious devastation which occurs when someone gets it massively wrong - which might be intercepted by a fairly cheap sign"?

Self-evidently after the recent M40 carnage, I would posit that: "The absence of any "wrong way - go back" signage certainly did nothing to prevent the resulting carnage".

This country learns from disasters and takes action to try to prevent a recurrence - I recall the policy to raise central reservation barriers after road re-surfacing, following a crossover (technically a "leap-over") on the M4 back in the 1980s.

If you saw the BBC2 programme on Grenfell last night, it's clear we haven't learnt from disasters in the past - but we should continue trying, a review in this case may identify some quick fixes.

[Bendo]

I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?

Wrong way incidents are not exactly unknown at the other end of the age spectrum with twockers, in fact I suspect they are much more common from a Google search, This one didnt get much prominence on yesterdays news.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-46024097

or this
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... n-10045393

And just about a year ago we were discussing this case
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... gham-crash

Most SatNavs will explicitly tell you which exit to take at a junction, I suspect that with the TomTom products you would get the standard off track message.
'Turn around where possible' or words to that effect.

I don't think the first two come down to the age spectrum, more the fact that they were driven by scum who should have been drowned at birth,

[Herned]

Wrong way incidents are not exactly unknown at the other end of the age spectrum with twockers, in fact I suspect they are much more common from a Google search, This one didnt get much prominence on yesterdays news.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-46024097

or this
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... n-10045393

And just about a year ago we were discussing this case
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... gham-crash

Those are all deliberate though, so nothing to do with this subject

[Herned]

Self-evidently after the recent M40 carnage, I would posit that: "The absence of any "wrong way - go back" signage certainly did nothing to prevent the resulting carnage".

This country learns from disasters and takes action to try to prevent a recurrence - I recall the policy to raise central reservation barriers after road re-surfacing, following a crossover (technically a "leap-over") on the M4 back in the 1980s.

There are some quite big no entry signs on the slip road in question, so having ignored those why would a driver suddenly read a second set of signs?