Junction review after wrong-way crash

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Euan
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Euan »

mikehindsonevans wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 09:18 Euan, I am uncertain as to the point that you are making - do we "do nothing and give up and shrug our shoulders" or do we "try at least to reduce the obvious devastation which occurs when someone gets it massively wrong - which might be intercepted by a fairly cheap sign"?
I say we should do the latter. The point that I was trying to make was that some people do not realise that signs should be observed to the same level as roads themselves and may by just be slightly oblivious to them by default. If we do not emphasise this (through school, driving tests etc...) enough, what I am saying is we run the risk of having a considerably wider section of people who will merely dismiss the "wrong way" signs as a waste of time. But yes, I absolutely take the view that safety on roads must come first, even if there are big costs involved.
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Johnathan404
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Johnathan404 »

In the specific case of the M40 incident, the driver wasn’t phased by hundreds of vehicles coming towards him and arrows painted on the road so a couple more no entry signs wouldn’t have done anything.

In general I see no issue with more visible signage given the scale of accident it could be preventing.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by BlackfordHill »

Herned wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 09:37 There are some quite big no entry signs on the slip road in question, so having ignored those why would a driver suddenly read a second set of signs?
Indeed. On two occasions I have met cars going the wrong way up this slip road off the A3:

https://goo.gl/maps/yWksi8HknPr

despite:

- Three no entry signs
- "No Entry" written on the road
- Direction Arrows on both lanes
- The layout of the slip road making turning into it from the roundabout being very awkward

The first time this happened, the two cars in convoy making their way on to the slip road from the roundabout passed both me and the car behind me and continued up the slip road despite both of us leaning on the horn for a long period of time.

Of course, more should be done to prevent tragedies such as the M40 crash but one really wonders whether anything will get through to some people.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Octaviadriver »

Johnathan404 wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:37 In the specific case of the M40 incident, the driver wasn’t phased by hundreds of vehicles coming towards him and arrows painted on the road so a couple more no entry signs wouldn’t have done anything.
And how did he cross over to lane three when he joined the M40 as it appears heavily trafficked, especially with a caravan in tow? You'd think that he would hit someone making that manoeuvre.

I worry a little as I'm getting older of making such a mistake, especially if I'm driving abroad, but I hope that I would stop as soon as I realised I'd made a mistake like that and either turn around if it's safe or wait for assistance if I can't safely get out of it alone and face any consequences of my actions.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by KeithW »

Herned wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 09:37 There are some quite big no entry signs on the slip road in question, so having ignored those why would a driver suddenly read a second set of signs?
Because having missed them on the turn he gets a second chance. Given the emphasis on smart roads it should not be that hard to have sensors on off slips that detect wrong way drivers and alert the highway control room and police. As I posted up thread in The USA they have started fitting these. They flash large bright LED signs at the errant driver and if he/she continues activate VMS signs to the effect that a wrong way driver is on the road. Reports suggest that this combined with improved signage has worked well. In addition the detectors have flagged certain types of junction where wrong way incidents happen but the driver does realise and turns around. One thing they found was that with some cars the no entry signs were harder to see because they were mounted too high and to meet modern crash test legislation modern cars have thicker A pillars that can restrict visibility when turning.

http://www.dot.ri.gov/community/safety/wrong_way.php
https://www.t2center.uconn.edu/SCpdfs/S ... 0RIDOT.pdf
https://www.roadsbridges.com/traffic-sa ... ode-island

One problematic junction they found was this one
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@41.78576 ... 6656?hl=en

This type of compressed cloverleaf with the exit ramps side by side is well known to be a potential entry spot for wrong way drivers. Ideally of course it should be rebuilt but there many thousands of them in the USA so RI went for active signage as a low cost solution.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Octaviadriver wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:21
Johnathan404 wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:37 In the specific case of the M40 incident, the driver wasn’t phased by hundreds of vehicles coming towards him and arrows painted on the road so a couple more no entry signs wouldn’t have done anything.
And how did he cross over to lane three when he joined the M40 as it appears heavily trafficked, especially with a caravan in tow? You'd think that he would hit someone making that manoeuvre.

I worry a little as I'm getting older of making such a mistake, especially if I'm driving abroad, but I hope that I would stop as soon as I realised I'd made a mistake like that and either turn around if it's safe or wait for assistance if I can't safely get out of it alone and face any consequences of my actions.
I have driven the wrong way with a caravan, not on a motorway but exiting a supermarket car-park in Perth - we'd parked up away from the store for a break and on the way out I somehow managed to get into the "In" lane rather than "Out" lane, my own fault obviously - I stopped immediately and waited for an oncoming driver to realise my plight and wait for me to exit.

It's right that junctions should be reviewed, any improvement in signage will help, not hinder - but mistakes will always be made and not all drivers will take a safe way to rectify their mistake.
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roadtester
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by roadtester »

Octaviadriver wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:21
Johnathan404 wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:37 In the specific case of the M40 incident, the driver wasn’t phased by hundreds of vehicles coming towards him and arrows painted on the road so a couple more no entry signs wouldn’t have done anything.
And how did he cross over to lane three when he joined the M40 as it appears heavily trafficked, especially with a caravan in tow? You'd think that he would hit someone making that manoeuvre.

I worry a little as I'm getting older of making such a mistake, especially if I'm driving abroad, but I hope that I would stop as soon as I realised I'd made a mistake like that and either turn around if it's safe or wait for assistance if I can't safely get out of it alone and face any consequences of my actions.
I feel increasingly aware of this as I get older - at 56 I think I probably react a little more slowly than I did and so on but that I am probably safer overall because I drive more defensively and have more experience.

I can easily see things sliding, though - my late father was quite self-aware on this and reduced his driving and then stopped. I'd like to think I'll be similarly self-aware.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by AndyB »

Quite typical in NI is two sets of No Entry signs to catch those who miss the ones on the very end of the sliproad, especially at urban junctions where there is a speed limit or if the chopsticks are double banked. The wigwags are on one set or the other, and it isn't consistent.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Herned »

KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:28 Because having missed them on the turn he gets a second chance. Given the emphasis on smart roads it should not be that hard to have sensors on off slips that detect wrong way drivers and alert the highway control room and police. As I posted up thread in The USA they have started fitting these. They flash large bright LED signs at the errant driver and if he/she continues activate VMS signs to the effect that a wrong way driver is on the road. Reports suggest that this combined with improved signage has worked well. In addition the detectors have flagged certain types of junction where wrong way incidents happen but the driver does realise and turns around. One thing they found was that with some cars the no entry signs were harder to see because they were mounted too high and to meet modern crash test legislation modern cars have thicker A pillars that can restrict visibility when turning.
I have done a search for incidents of this nature, and all the most recent incidents before this one involved people deliberately going the wrong way, or being very drunk. I assume there would need to be a proper cost-benefit calculation to work out the cost per life saved of installation and maintenance of sensors and signs, and also the safety of the maintenance crew. I wonder how often such things would be of genuine benefit.

Obviously if it is happening somewhere regularly then something should be done, ideally engineering the risk away
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Herned »

BlackfordHill wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:53 Indeed. On two occasions I have met cars going the wrong way up this slip road off the A3:

https://goo.gl/maps/yWksi8HknPr

despite:

- Three no entry signs
- "No Entry" written on the road
- Direction Arrows on both lanes
- The layout of the slip road making turning into it from the roundabout being very awkward

The first time this happened, the two cars in convoy making their way on to the slip road from the roundabout passed both me and the car behind me and continued up the slip road despite both of us leaning on the horn for a long period of time.

Of course, more should be done to prevent tragedies such as the M40 crash but one really wonders whether anything will get through to some people.
Wow, that looks pretty foolproof to me! But then you can always find a bigger fool I guess
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by c2R »

I've seen (and reported to the police) someone turn left here before... I had to re-watch the dashcam footage to check I wasn't mis-remembering what my eyes saw in front of me. The arrow sort of points you down there, but the deflection is rather tight...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7994269 ... 312!8i6656
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by KeithW »

c2R wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:25 I've seen (and reported to the police) someone turn left here before... I had to re-watch the dashcam footage to check I wasn't mis-remembering what my eyes saw in front of me. The arrow sort of points you down there, but the deflection is rather tight...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7994269 ... 312!8i6656
That is just bad. Not only do 2 separate road marking suggest you should turn but there is an absence of a No Entry sign !
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by c2R »

KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:50
c2R wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:25 I've seen (and reported to the police) someone turn left here before... I had to re-watch the dashcam footage to check I wasn't mis-remembering what my eyes saw in front of me. The arrow sort of points you down there, but the deflection is rather tight...

https://www.google.com/maps/@51.7994269 ... 312!8i6656
That is just bad. Not only do 2 separate road marking suggest you should turn but there is an absence of a No Entry sign !
I don't think any of the junctions on this stretch of the A10 have no entry signs to indicate you shouldn't turn down them... Looking at GSV, most roads of a similar standard do, but I don't ever recall there being any on the A10 at any of the junctions...
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Skinnylew »

Unfortunately unless it is physically restricted a small minority of drivers will be to distracted/stressed/confused to realise what is going on around them and then deal with it appropriately.

This is why large/major roundabout junctions are deliberately kinked to the left to flow traffic naturally on to the roundabout.

The case of the M40 Subaru Forester & caravan is perplexing as he was towing against the flow of significant traffic, at speed in the outside lane of a motorway. It's illegal to tow in the outside lane, the sheer amount of drivers swerving and the volume of traffic would have set off alarm bells instantly. I can only think that he had some kind of episode/panicked.
Reports contradict with some saying it was foreign registered and other reports saying they were from High Wycombe.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by KeithW »

Skinnylew wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 17:52 The case of the M40 Subaru Forester & caravan is perplexing as he was towing against the flow of significant traffic, at speed in the outside lane of a motorway. It's illegal to tow in the outside lane, the sheer amount of drivers swerving and the volume of traffic would have set off alarm bells instantly. I can only think that he had some kind of episode/panicked.
Reports contradict with some saying it was foreign registered and other reports saying they were from High Wycombe.
Both could of course be true, a pal of mine drove around Middlesbrough in a German registered VW for some time before he got it replated.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

Skinnylew wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 17:52 Unfortunately unless it is physically restricted a small minority of drivers will be to distracted/stressed/confused to realise what is going on around them and then deal with it appropriately.

This is why large/major roundabout junctions are deliberately kinked to the left to flow traffic naturally on to the roundabout.

The case of the M40 Subaru Forester & caravan is perplexing as he was towing against the flow of significant traffic, at speed in the outside lane of a motorway. It's illegal to tow in the outside lane, the sheer amount of drivers swerving and the volume of traffic would have set off alarm bells instantly. I can only think that he had some kind of episode/panicked.
Reports contradict with some saying it was foreign registered and other reports saying they were from High Wycombe.
The Subaru Forester was registered in Ireland - the driver was in the left lane as viewed from his direction of travel so the outside lane restriction is irrelevant.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by lefthandedspanner »

Bendo wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 09:31
KeithW wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 07:57
Stevie D wrote: Tue Oct 30, 2018 20:33 I know that the typical demographic associated with wrong-way incidents are probably the demographic least likely to use sat-navs, but do sat-navs give any indication if drivers are going the wrong way along a slip-road or one-way road? If not, is there a role for them to do so?
Wrong way incidents are not exactly unknown at the other end of the age spectrum with twockers, in fact I suspect they are much more common from a Google search, This one didnt get much prominence on yesterdays news.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-b ... m-46024097

or this
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/t ... n-10045393

And just about a year ago we were discussing this case
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... gham-crash

Most SatNavs will explicitly tell you which exit to take at a junction, I suspect that with the TomTom products you would get the standard off track message.
'Turn around where possible' or words to that effect.
I don't think the first two come down to the age spectrum, more the fact that they were driven by scum who should have been drowned at birth,
Or rather: daring and enterprising entrepreneurs who believed that might is right, and that there is no such thing as society.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Enceladus »

I’m not surprised at that data that shows that a high proportion of drivers involved in wrong way motorway accidents were under the influence of alcohol. Here in Ireland in the late 1990s a prominent (now former) politician and cabinet minister at the time drove down the wrong way of the N7 Naas dual carriageway heavily intoxicated before being intercepted by Gardai.

Motorways only became common on the Irish road network from the mid 1990s onwards, so there was much concern that many drivers, especially older drivers not used to using motorways, would take wrong turns at interchanges. And indeed there have been a few wrong way accidents involving older drivers.

The layout of the interchange is also a factor: it seems compact GSJs are a culprit here. On the M7 and the M18 there are a couple of these types of interchange that are IMO unfit for purpose and need to be rebuilt.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by KeithW »

Herned wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:07
I have done a search for incidents of this nature, and all the most recent incidents before this one involved people deliberately going the wrong way, or being very drunk. I assume there would need to be a proper cost-benefit calculation to work out the cost per life saved of installation and maintenance of sensors and signs, and also the safety of the maintenance crew. I wonder how often such things would be of genuine benefit.

Obviously if it is happening somewhere regularly then something should be done, ideally engineering the risk away
I think that at the very least motorways and expressways should have sensors that detect vehicles entering on an off slip and that they should be linked to the highway control centre so the police and ideally drivers on the road can be warned. This will help manage both deliberate and accidental incursions.
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Re: Junction review after wrong-way crash

Post by Ruperts Trooper »

KeithW wrote: Thu Nov 01, 2018 07:05
Herned wrote: Wed Oct 31, 2018 14:07
I have done a search for incidents of this nature, and all the most recent incidents before this one involved people deliberately going the wrong way, or being very drunk. I assume there would need to be a proper cost-benefit calculation to work out the cost per life saved of installation and maintenance of sensors and signs, and also the safety of the maintenance crew. I wonder how often such things would be of genuine benefit.

Obviously if it is happening somewhere regularly then something should be done, ideally engineering the risk away
I think that at the very least motorways and expressways should have sensors that detect vehicles entering on an off slip and that they should be linked to the highway control centre so the police and ideally drivers on the road can be warned. This will help manage both deliberate and accidental incursions.
That would be triggered by emergency vehicles "reverse running" but they should already have cleared that with their control room.
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