M11 extension back on the agenda

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Bryn666
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by Bryn666 »

KeithW wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 10:19
qwertyK wrote: Mon May 23, 2022 21:35 IMO they should have just renumbered the upgraded A14 the M11 instead, but oh well. You'd have thought with the "levelling up" business it might get a bit more interest. The eastern half of England is like a desert for motorways
Doing so would achieve nothing except to put a confusing section of M11 into the A14 for a few miles, if it was to be a motorway the obvious number is A14(M) which in fact is already used for the stretch from Alconbury to Little Stukeley on the A1(M) although it is not signed.

As for motorways in Eastern England there is rather a long stretch of A1(M) from Darrington to Birtley while the A168/A19 from Dishforth to Seaton Burn is not a motorway it is a high quality dual carriageway road. I certainly would like to see the A1 upgraded from Peterborough to Blyth and the A15 from Lincoln to the Humber Bridge but looking at the roads to the east the traffic levels on the A16 and A17 just dont justify it. The one exception is the A46 to Lincoln but there is already a scheme in place to upgrade it. Humberside of course already has the M180 and M62

If you want a motorway desert consider the south coast between Folkestone and Portsmouth, the quickest way to drive between the two is M20/M25/A3 - been there done that.
M14 surely. Ax(M) designations are a joke and we should be doing our best to get rid of them, not create more.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by MotorwayGuy »

The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by KeithW »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 14:46 The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
The status of a Motorway is a legal one not a technical one, it denotes that it is restricted to certain classes of traffic by virtue of being a special road.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ecial_Road

This is a motorway
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.80514 ... 8192?hl=en

This is not - note cyclists and pedestrians are not allowed to use it just as with the new stretch of A14.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.55342 ... 8192?hl=en
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by Chris Bertram »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 14:46 The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
I think it likely that a decent map will show a dual-carriageway differently from a single-carriageway. I quite like the Michelin style that also distinguishes bog-standard duals with at-grade junctions and roundabouts from HQDCs with all grade-separated junctions.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by MotorwayGuy »

KeithW wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 16:50
MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 14:46 The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
The status of a Motorway is a legal one not a technical one, it denotes that it is restricted to certain classes of traffic by virtue of being a special road.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ecial_Road

This is a motorway
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.80514 ... 8192?hl=en

This is not - note cyclists and pedestrians are not allowed to use it just as with the new stretch of A14.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.55342 ... 8192?hl=en
I understand this but for the majority of people, a blue line = better road. If we are going to have special roads that are motorways in all but name, they should just have been motorways in the first place.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by KeithW »

MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 17:41
KeithW wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 16:50
MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 14:46 The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
The status of a Motorway is a legal one not a technical one, it denotes that it is restricted to certain classes of traffic by virtue of being a special road.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ecial_Road

This is a motorway
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@53.80514 ... 8192?hl=en

This is not - note cyclists and pedestrians are not allowed to use it just as with the new stretch of A14.
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@54.55342 ... 8192?hl=en
I understand this but for the majority of people, a blue line = better road. If we are going to have special roads that are motorways in all but name, they should just have been motorways in the first place.
My example of the A19 is not a special road.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by c2R »

Blue line is a better road if you're in a van as you can do 70 rather than 60. That extra 10mph influences route choices...
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by the cheesecake man »

Chris Bertram wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 16:59
MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 14:46 The way we designate motorways is a complete mess, you have sections of primary A road that look like this, but by looking at a map are indistinguishable from a road like this.
I think it likely that a decent map will show a dual-carriageway differently from a single-carriageway.
I'd argue any decent map will, if it doesn't it's not a decent map.
I quite like the Michelin style that also distinguishes bog-standard duals with at-grade junctions and roundabouts from HQDCs with all grade-separated junctions.
Yes that would be useful. A map that shows junction layouts will also give some clue as to which is which. Or HQDCs could be given a different name and coloured blue to make it really clear in advance. :stir:
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by Rillington »

Steven wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 15:11 It's worth pointing out again that the so-called East Coast Motorway was never "on the cards" - it was never any more official than the ABD's POLO.
I do remember talk of the East Coast Motorway around 30 years ago at the height of the Roads to Prosperity planned expansion of the road network but how likely it was ever going to be was always debatable.

I do think that extending the M11 is needed although how far north it would go would be the issue as building a motorway of any length is much less straight forward these days. However, this is a part of the world which has very poor transport links and this does need to be addressed as part of the so-called levelling up process.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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Rillington wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 15:23
Steven wrote: Thu Nov 08, 2018 15:11 It's worth pointing out again that the so-called East Coast Motorway was never "on the cards" - it was never any more official than the ABD's POLO.
I do remember talk of the East Coast Motorway around 30 years ago at the height of the Roads to Prosperity planned expansion of the road network but how likely it was ever going to be was always debatable.

I do think that extending the M11 is needed although how far north it would go would be the issue as building a motorway of any length is much less straight forward these days. However, this is a part of the world which has very poor transport links and this does need to be addressed as part of the so-called levelling up process.
It wasn't in RfP, or any other official White Paper or other policy document. It's therefore not at all debatable about "how likely", unless people want to argue the exact wordforms that boil down to "it's never ever been officially proposed by any part of the Government".
Last edited by Steven on Wed May 25, 2022 17:13, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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MotorwayGuy wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 17:41
KeithW wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 16:50 The status of a Motorway is a legal one not a technical one, it denotes that it is restricted to certain classes of traffic by virtue of being a special road.
https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/wiki/ind ... ecial_Road
If we are going to have special roads that are motorways in all but name, they should just have been motorways in the first place.
There's more to Special Roads than just being "nearly a motorway". As an example, a Special Road cannot have a gas main running down the middle of it like an all-purpose road can.

And it's perfectly permissible to have a Special Road for which motorised traffic is not allowed - for example, the footpath alongside the Severn and Wye bridges is a Special Road.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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Rillington wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 15:23
I do remember talk of the East Coast Motorway around 30 years ago at the height of the Roads to Prosperity planned expansion of the road network but how likely it was ever going to be was always debatable.

I do think that extending the M11 is needed although how far north it would go would be the issue as building a motorway of any length is much less straight forward these days. However, this is a part of the world which has very poor transport links and this does need to be addressed as part of the so-called levelling up process.
What was proposed for the M11 was widening to D3(M) to J14.

I suspect what you are thinking of was the upgrade of the A1 to motorway all the way to Tyneside, this was to have been D2(M) between Stamford and Doncaster

As I recall the White Paper was published as Roads for Prosperity
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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KeithW wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 17:13 I suspect what you are thinking of was the upgrade of the A1 to motorway all the way to Tyneside, this was to have been D2(M) between Stamford and Doncaster
Which actually wasn't in RfP! It was contained in the later "Trunk Roads: Into the 1990s".
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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Steven wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 17:08
Rillington wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 15:23
I do remember talk of the East Coast Motorway around 30 years ago at the height of the Roads to Prosperity planned expansion of the road network but how likely it was ever going to be was always debatable.

I do think that extending the M11 is needed although how far north it would go would be the issue as building a motorway of any length is much less straight forward these days. However, this is a part of the world which has very poor transport links and this does need to be addressed as part of the so-called levelling up process.
It wasn't in RfP, or any other official White Paper or other policy document. It's therefore not at all debatable about "how likely", unless people want to argue the exact wordforms that boil down to "it's never ever been officially proposed by any part of the Government".
I know it wasn't. I was merely saying that it was being talked about at roughly the same time as RfP was published.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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Rillington wrote: Thu May 26, 2022 14:47 I know it wasn't. I was merely saying that it was being talked about at roughly the same time as RfP was published.
This is as far as it got
"Hansard Volume 135: debated on Tuesday 14 June 1988" wrote: Mr. Cran asked
To ask the Secretary of State for Transport what representations he has received concerning the construction of an east coast motorway, extending the M11 northwards to Newcastle; what studies have been undertaken by his Department to establish the feasibility of such a motorway; and what priority he attaches to achieving a new north-south road link.

Mr. Peter Bottomley Replied
We have received a number of representations about the provision of an east coast motorway. We have no plans for the construction of such a route nor have studies been undertaken into its feasibility. Our aim is to ensure that the trunk road network continues to meet current and future traffic needs. There is a large number of schemes in the programme for improving the existing routes.
Nuff said.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by Glenn A »

I would much rather any money was spent turning the A1 into D3M all the way from London to Barton. In parts this road is an outdated joke, with some sections still having houses next to the carriageway, at grade junctions and roundabouts. Driving on the D3M section in North Yorkshire was both faster and far less stressful than the sixties D2.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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Glenn A wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 18:26 I would much rather any money was spent turning the A1 into D3M all the way from London to Barton. In parts this road is an outdated joke, with some sections still having houses next to the carriageway, at grade junctions and roundabouts. Driving on the D3M section in North Yorkshire was both faster and far less stressful than the sixties D2.
Totally agree. At the very minimum there should be an motorway upgrade to complete the A1(M) from London through to Peterborough, it's pretty unbelievable this stretch remains in the state it is.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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thomas417 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 11:12
Glenn A wrote: Sun May 29, 2022 18:26 I would much rather any money was spent turning the A1 into D3M all the way from London to Barton. In parts this road is an outdated joke, with some sections still having houses next to the carriageway, at grade junctions and roundabouts. Driving on the D3M section in North Yorkshire was both faster and far less stressful than the sixties D2.
Totally agree. At the very minimum there should be an motorway upgrade to complete the A1(M) from London through to Peterborough, it's pretty unbelievable this stretch remains in the state it is.
Anyone know if the improved A14 from Girton has taken some of the traffic off the southern end of the A1 by some switching to the M11/A14 alternative? Not that this would be an excuse to leave it as it is but I wonder if this would be taken into consideration for any future planning
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

Post by Mapper89062 »

I'm not sure the A1 from Peterborough - Blyth needs a full D3M rebuild. I would have thought you could get most of the benefits for much less cost by upgrading the existing route to full-grade D2 expressway. Longer distance journeys should be using the M1 anyway, and I think there are several roads far more in need of widening.

Following the Elkesley grade separation, other than a couple of tiny reserve gaps between Elkesley and Apleyhead that only serve farm accesses and could easily go if they cause a problem, there is now an unbroken central reserve all the way from Morpeth to the south of Newark. A lot of improvements are needed from Peterborough to Balderton though, including several junctions that surely should have been grade separated by now, such as Wittering, Great Ponton (probably best dealt with via bypassing that bit of the route entirely - I'd suggest starting just north of the Little Ponton fork to eliminate another very nasty gap that's within that junction, and having a local access GSJ at the southern tie-in to the existing route, with Grantham traffic using the new junction for the A52 southern relief road), Marston, North Witham, and the B6236 near Claypole. Reconstruction of the most substandard sections of the road, like southbound near Colsterworth and northbound at Alwalton would be good as well.

I'd be more supportive of a motorway upgrade from Buckden to Baldock mainly because much more of that section is unusable if upgrading to modern standards - you'd need new alignments at Buckden, the Tempsford boatyard and Sandy as a minimum, and there are a particularly high number of dangerous at-grade turns and a few roundabouts there.
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Re: M11 extension back on the agenda

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skiddaw05 wrote: Mon May 30, 2022 12:30 Anyone know if the improved A14 from Girton has taken some of the traffic off the southern end of the A1 by some switching to the M11/A14 alternative? Not that this would be an excuse to leave it as it is but I wonder if this would be taken into consideration for any future planning
I sincerely doubt it, the traffic levels on the A14 to the east and west of the Cambridge conurbation have been hovering around 40k for 20 years, much is the same on the A1 to the North. Most of the traffic around Girton is a mixture of commuters heading for Cambridge, the Science Park and Orchard Park. On the A1 south of the Black Cat is down to 30k but rapidly rises as you head past Baldock due to commuters heading for London.

I would like to see the A1 upgraded but mostly for safety reasons. The sections dualled in the 1950's and 1960's are now seriously deficient with a great many really dodgy flat junctions, let me give you Great Ponton
https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@52.86331 ... 6656?hl=en

A decent D2 upgrade that removed all the flat junctions even if it was just an overbridge and a couple of lilo's would be a vast improvement. D3 would of course be better as it prevents the elephant racing HGV's which can be such a pain but making it a motorway would require a lot of LAR building which would be hugely expensive.

The reality with the M1 is that its already heavily loaded and is any case of limited use use to anyone heading from Cambridge, Peterborough or Felixstowe to Stamford, Newark or Doncaster.
Last edited by KeithW on Mon May 30, 2022 14:34, edited 1 time in total.
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